Joshua A. H.
user 41700682
Springfield, IL
Post #: 1
Janet brought up a good point in the last meeting that I had not considered. We should hold debates between us atheists and theists, but first we should practice by debating each other. The fact is that when you are a proud atheist, people of faith will start a debate with you. If we as atheists cannot hold our own against a theist, we revert to being closet atheists and the theist runs of surer than ever that his worldview is sound. Janet said that we should know both sides of the argument, and I agree completely. If we know the theist points, and formulate our counter points we will always be prepared.
Jim D.
user 32859172
Springfield, MO
Post #: 1
Start at the beginning. The universe is 5 billion years old? Where did it come from? According to the rules of physics, you can't create something from nothing. So where did all of the matter that created the universe come from?
Mark P.
user 3905189
Divernon, IL
Post #: 66
The question presumes much. Relying on the hard deterministic nature of a mechanical cause/effect universe is quite presumptuous.
Jim D.
user 32859172
Springfield, MO
Post #: 2
In which case, I can presume to win the argument, because my deity always has been and always will be. When it pleased him, he made the universe in a mere 6 days, taking off the 7th for beer and nachos.

While you are stuck with your silly rules for physics, which can not explain where everything came from that created the universe, I have a deity to fall back on. And my deity trumps your big bang. Of course, you knew your pathetic big bang theory was flawed, everyone knows the earth and everything else is only 5,000 years old, everyone except you silly "scientific" liberal types.

And the big bang is just a theory, not proven fact. I have a deity, seen by several trustworthy people in the old testament, and the most famous book in history to prove how real my deity is. I have a bible that can reasonably pinpoint the creation of the Garden of Eden to about 5000 years ago, not some stupid theory that the universe is 5 billion years old based on a few shades of light as seen through a telescope.
Mark P.
user 3905189
Divernon, IL
Post #: 69
Your deity must be weak indeed to be so limited to a one time creation. And how long ago? 5,000 years? Might as well be 5 billion years ago. Infinitudes of multiple times weaker compared to my deity, which constantly creates the universes, is that puny deity of yours.

You've relied on hearsay, unless you were around to witness the events of *snicker* 5,000 years ago? Your deity's history, if that's what you must call it, has been handed down from many dreamers with so many translations that meaningful translations are equally dreamed fairy tales themselves.

Your false descriptions of God are due to your rebellion against the True God, IT, that you vainly hope to slip by the attention of the True God by removing yourself some 5,000 years from ITS effective range of influence. 5 billion years, nay, not 14.37 billion years even is not enough to escape that Great Influencer of Immediacy, the True God, IT, the day ITS patience wains, pushed to anger from boastings of worshipping false idols creations 5,000 years removed and leading ITS innocents to the lair of your own demise when in reality your own false knowledge of the true deity and of yourself is of less value to IT than that of an expired pismire.
Jim D.
user 32859172
Springfield, MO
Post #: 3
You are calling the Bible hearsay? That is blasphemy. The reason god has not created more than one universe is because he got it right the first time, as any true god would do. As is written in the old testament. You can't deny the writings of the bible, even historians tell us that such events as the great flood happened. Why is it so hard to accept the written word of god?

And I ask again, where did your universe come from. Everyone, even scientists, know that you can't create something from nothing. Without that explanation all of your arguments have no basis, since you are relying on a science that contradicts itself.
Mark P.
user 3905189
Divernon, IL
Post #: 70
Determining the credibility of a book's sources, before relying on it as a base of action, blasphemy? Ho ho. Will you be assembling an ark by your Bible's criteria and crossing the Atlantic without comparing the standards of Biblical ship construction to present ship building standards? Your responsibility to your crew demands such attention to reality before you set sail. Don't forget the termites and the rest of your "cargo." I urge you to shake a chicken foot and rattle to guaranteebiggrin your safe voyage.

The written word, as the Bible, is just that, written and not recently either. Where is any living today who can describe for themselves that Living Word? They can quote it, but from other than the writer's perspective and that is hearsay. The Bible is worshiped proudly in ignorance instead of the I AM principle of the first of the commandments that is self-evident to this day.

Where is the universe coming from now? Why do you ignore this most basic act of creation when it is the most accessible, relevant, and suitable as a standard for reference to the question: Where did your universe come from?

"Everyone, even scientists, know that you can't create something from nothing." A bold statement easily invalidated with a single instance of ignorance of that idea. The result of observations and theories cause men to come to logical conclusions. These are hardly any more than representations, models, predictive engines of observations defined by the limits of our minds and instruments that we weaponize to effect in the battle against PSED (Pain, Suffering, and Early Death.)

Your God made this world the best of all worlds? Sir, are you blind or intentionally ignorant? If blind, you should thank your God for your condition each time you step in a hole, lose a tooth, and break your nose from the fall. What of the children suffering cerebral palsy, not being able to feed or care for themselves, not able to speak or stand? Are they intentionally ignorant of the great benefit that God has accomplished in creating the best of all worlds? Sir, it is NOT your god that is the problem here, it is YOU and your casting the facts of human despair as the best that your god can manage. Sir, set YOUR sights on a different god. Please, for the children.
Janet
Facts
Group Organizer
Springfield, IL
Post #: 133
Looks like you guys are having fun with this! Have at it!
A former member
Post #: 87
How can science determine, how old the universe is. When they can't even find the beginning of it. Scientist can not say how long the universe was around before human life forms came into existence, can they?
One can not determine how old the universe is.
If you say scientist can determine how old somethings been around, by using carbon dating process. That still does not give a true answer. Who thought of carbon dating man or someone else?
Man can not go back as far to determine, how long man has been on this earth. When scientist can not say when or what time period man started living on earth. Because questions still remain. Can science answer these questions?
Such as:
Where did the first man come from?

How did he become human?

How did man know there were other life forms on earth?

Where did the first female appear to on earth?

And how did the man and women meet.

And how would man know its a female, if man had no knowledge of what he is, or how he came to be?


How did man know he was a man, if there was no one else around to tell him, what he was?
When did man learn to talk?
When did man learn to build things.
If they were simple people, who had no education? Or didn't even know what water was, or trees, flowers.
How did man determine what was what. If they had no lick of sense among them?
Can your science answer these questions?
Find me the answers, show me the evidence.....

Where is the solid evidence that is beyond questioning, and beyond reasonable doubt to show how man became man. Was the first man born?
If so, then how and who were his parents? Where was the first female from?
Was she born, or did she evolve? If she evolved, then what did she evolve from?

If man evolved from apes, then what did women evolve from? As you atheist say.
When did man start to build shelters?
How did they learn to talk?
Someone had to teach them. But how can you teach someone, if you yourself do not know how?. Let me see how scientist came to this conclusion.
There are so many questions that scientist can not answer. So why should one believe in science, if it can not give one the answer they seek? Can you yourself answer these questions, Mark?
A former member
Post #: 6
There are many great books on evolution but, since you seem to have no concept of the subject, I would suggest you start with "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins. After you have absorbed at least a minimum understanding of evolution, I would be glad to discuss the subject further.
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