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Re: [skeptics-137] Fw: Last Friday night on Not Eating Meat.

From: cole m.
Sent on: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:49 PM
That 'is' what I am saying, Adam.  Lets grow up and stop doing it. Or should we do nothing because it is not moving along fast enough for us?


From: Adam <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16,[masked]:58 PM
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Fw: Last Friday night on Not Eating Meat.

Oh I am quite familiar with that type of footage.  (I haven't had time to watch these specific movies, but it is in my to do list.)  I have seen footage of the horrors of slaughterhouses, of chicken farms, of how Veal is "raised".  I read The Jungle.  I am aware of the way we pump the animals full of hormones and drugs.  Ive watched much of the stuff that PETA has put out in years past.  that is why I agree there is a problem. I just disagree that eating meat is "bad" and that slaughterhouses are just horrible places.  This is also WHY I made the comment earlier about that I think anyone who eats meat should butcher an animal at some point so they know what is involved.  OF COURSE if you are going to kill and butcher an animal there is going to be blood and guts and nasty bits.  That does not mean that it can not be done as painlessly as possible, Temple Grandin (who I keep referring to) works to design slaughter houses to be more humane and has shown that the more humane methods are more efficient in general and have many benefits.

We have a ton of problems in how we raise our food, of that there is no doubt.  The comment about how critters die in the wild is referring to the horror of the actual killing floors.

For the sake of fairness, how about other issues in the food supply?

How the over fertilization of fields and the run off of pesticides and their like are poisioning the rivers and oceans of the world, the impact that chopping down and filling in wetlands, estuaries etc for crops are that killing off the reefs etc., as well as breeding grounds and nurseries for fish?  How they contribute to massive algae blooms?  How farmers (and ranchers, yes) are responsible for slash and burn attacks on the rainforests? (Yes I am aware much of the crops are grown to feed meat animals, that does not alter that bad farming causes problems as well.)

Our species overdoes almost every thing we do, and causes problems by doing so.  It is a sad reality of our species, one I hope we someday grow up and stop doing.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Fred <[address removed]> wrote:
You need to take a look at that short video-within-a-video to see the night-and-day difference between the lifelong, torturous, no-room-to-move conditions of these chickens and hogs, for instance, and the lives of animals in the wild (even when they do end violently or slowly).

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Adam <[address removed]> wrote:
... watch a nature documentary that doesn't cut away form the kill and dining of a large predator.... observe a lion pride eating a zebra as and till it dies...

Slaughter houses have problems, without a doubt, and should be improved (Ill reference Temple Grandin again) as well as the factory nature of the ways we raise our feed animals, but lets not forget how things happen in the wild when we are comparing ourselves to them.  Where herds starve and or drown in their annual migrations, where wolf packs hamstring a create and let it slowly die.  How a Komodo Dragon eats by infecting it's prey with disease ridden saliva and letting it slowly die and then catching up to rip it apart.

It ain't a pretty world out there, no matter where you look.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Fred <[address removed]> wrote:
OK, Cole, I admit you've given me ... much food for thought.  No really, I watched most of the 2 parts below - and all of the video within Part 1 that showed the amazingly inhumane conditions of the life and death of these animals.  That little video alone is enough to cause anyone who sees it to rethink (or perhaps more like me, really consider for the first time) what is involved in bringing to our dinner table a hamburger, a steak, a roast, a pork chop, or even a "healthy" grilled chicken sandwich.  You can't understand what that little slogan means about "If all slaughterhouses had windows..." until you've seen that video.  I highly recommend that everyone sees this (below).

On the other hand, I realize that all this could perhaps as easily make a case for putting our efforts instead into the more realistic goal of improving the appalling conditions under which these animals live, and being willing to pay more for our meat and dairy products.  I think people from all belief systems might be able to get together on this.  But if you're an atheist and you watch these two parts by the Minnesota Atheists, you might come to agree that to be consistent as an atheist, the vegetarian (or better, vegan) diet is the obvious choice.  Those who don't believe that humans were in any way made in the image of God or are particularly special in the animal world (other than in degree, rather than in kind) can draw a straight line from:  I don't think we should subject humans to life in a human-sized cage being fattened up for slaughter ... to ... I don't think lower forms of life that also experience consciousness and feeling should be subjected to this, either.  The Minnesota Atheists video makes a good case.  Maybe even for a Christian.  I'm still thinking about it ...

Fred (aka Crash)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 2:23 PM, cole morgan <[address removed]> wrote:
I sent this to the Provocateurs earlier because this is where the discussion began.


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Cole Morgan <[address removed]>
To: "[address removed]" <[address removed]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15,[masked]:57 AM
Subject: Last Friday night on Not Eating Meat.

Last Friday at Provocateurs & Peacemakers I said I would email out some info I have on why I don't eat meat.  If you have information that promotes killing animals and good healthy reasons why I should eat meat please send them to me and/or to the group. I am open to change my mind and begin promoting murder again. LOL 
I mean this in the nicest way.
Thanks to all who attended last Friday.  It was so much fun. Life is so much fun. Thanks to All for adding to it.

Cole [masked]

This is a good two parter( about an hour long total) that summarizes the other material I have included if you don't have time to learn why I have decided not to kill animals and not eat meat because it is not healthy for me. Oh, some of the videos are somewhat gruesome -worse than Horror Flicks- so you may consider this before you click on the link. I wouldn't want anyone to feel bad.
Enjoy.  Peace.

#1) Part 1 Vegans, Vegetarians and Atheist, Part 1 

Published on Dec 19, 2012
Atheists Talk cable program by Minnesota Atheists.

 Part 2

"Vegans, Vegetarians and Atheist, Part 1" recorded 12/6/2012

During part one, guest Rohit Ravindran discussed his background and the points in his life that brought him to atheism. He then explained how, from a philosophical standpoint, the logic that led him to atheism also led him to become a vegetarian, and later, a vegan. Rohit provided definitions of a few terms, and detailed the violence inherent in factory farms. He shared a video of covertly recorded footage from inside one such factory to bolster his claim, and offered suggested reading material to learn more. James Zimmerman hosted.
In part two, Rohit Ravindran continued his discussion of eating conscientiously. He explained the ethics involved in decided what to, and what not to, eat. Host James Zimmerman aired several common objections to vegetarianism, and Rohit explained the common responses. He also explained the benefits of a non-meat diet from environmental and health perspectives. Rohit shared some of his favorite books on the topic, and noted a couple local vegan groups to help viewers learn more.

Minnesota Atheists practices positive, inclusive, active, friendly neighborhood atheism in order to:

- Provide a community for atheists
- Educate the public about atheism
- Promote separation of state and church
#2) Eight Arguments in Favor of Eating Meat and Objections Thereto

#3) 7 Reasons Why We Have Not ‘Evolved’ To Eat Meat
#4) Jamie Oliver's TED Award speech

#10  Shattering The Meat Myth: Humans Are Natural Vegetarians 


Don't part with your illusions.
When they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live.
-- Mark Twain

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