Re: [skeptics-137] Re: Fw: Fwd: [Provocateurs] Ted Talk - "I had an abortion... Or maybe I didn't. What does it matter, part 2

From: Marlys Kummer D.
Sent on: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:28 PM
Thanks.  So 4 other people read them or at least one of the 4. If they do not go through I will send them directly to Tom and try to put a piece at a time on P & P. 

Marlys

Sent from iPhone 



On Jan 18, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Kansas City Skeptic <[address removed]> wrote:

Cole doesn't approve P&P messages. They are approved by Fred, John, Brianna or Eric.



On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Marlys or Gene Doerflinger <[address removed]> wrote:
Is Cole the one I should have sent this to?

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Marlys or Gene Doerflinger <[address removed]>
To: Cole Morgan <[address removed]>
Sent: Friday, January 18,[masked]:05 PM
Subject: Fwd: [Provocateurs] Ted Talk - "I had an abortion... Or maybe I didn't. What does it matter, part 2

I am going to try to get this back on p$ p.  will it be forwarded? 

Marlys

Sent from iPhone 



Begin forwarded message:

From: [address removed]
Date: January 18, 2013, 12:01:25 PM CST
To: Marlys or Gene Doerflinger <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Provocateurs] Ted Talk - "I had an abortion... Or maybe I didn't. What does it matter, part 2
Reply-To: [address removed]

Hi again -- I wrote a fairly long response to this and then the internet ate it!
I guess I just want to say, what happened in the Old Testament was written for our example, to being us to Christ.  That's biblical, not Tom.
I know that God did instruct them, in the olden days, to kill entire populations, I can't explain all of that, not being a bible scholar.  
I do not thing that rape or incest were ever included in those instructions.
As for slavery, it was a fact of life -- we can't blame God for everything that happens.
Bottom line, in the New Testament, we do not see anything like that occurring.  Now that Christ has come, the shadow has become the reality.  What we need to concern ourselves with is, how do we deal with the reality of Christ.    God used to wink at our ignorance, bot now calls men and women everywhere to him.
This is basic and I am not trying to be preachy to you.   Bottom line, the OT was the OT, and we are
now in the times of the NT, so, that is what is more incumbant upon us to consume,
by saying that, I am not tryign to make excuses for the OT, god doesn't need me to do that
and it is what it is.   Remember, God sorts out the souls of men... so he knows how to take care of
things in the end.   If, for example, a baby dies in the womb, just as an example...  God knows how
to cradle that baby and whisk her soul up to the ecstacy of delights in heaven.   It's down here
that we have troubles and trials, not up there..
Sincerely.
Thomas
  
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Marlys or Gene Doerflinger
Sent: Jan 18,[masked]:49 AM
To: "[address removed]"
Subject: Fwd: [Provocateurs] Ted Talk - "I had an abortion... Or maybe I didn't. What does it matter?"

Apparently Cole did not want to send this on to you. 

Marlys

Sent from iPhone 



Begin forwarded message:

From: Marlys or Gene Doerflinger <[address removed]>
Date: January 17, 2013, 5:05:42 PM CST
To: "[address removed]" <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [Provocateurs] Ted Talk - "I had an abortion... Or maybe I didn't. What does it matter?"

So if god say to kill, rape, abort babies, approve of slavery  that is moral because god said it.  

I think that you are the one who does not understand.  It is in the Bible. Google it.  

The all powerful, all knowing god has it in his book.  It says what it says.  For you to interpret it any other was is to doubt what this all knowing all powerful deity has in his book.  And doubt is the only unforgivable sin. 

Marlys

Sent from iPhone 



On Jan 17, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Tom Gray <[address removed]> wrote:

Once again, you do err, simply not understand the Word.    It is theoretically impossible for God to be immoral, as he is holy, he is Light, and in him is no shadow of turning.   Recall that the old testament was written for our "ensample" (example) to bring us to Christ, as a schoolmaster.    
 

tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Marlys Kummer Doerflinger
Sent: Jan 16,[masked]:41 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [Provocateurs] Ted Talk - "I had an abortion... Or maybe I didn't. What does it matter?"

I guess they are part of the 80% who have not studied the book. Then there are those who just go to church for the party and listen to the preacher's cherry picking.  When they find out about the immoral things God says to do they are shocked.  I know I was.  

Marlys

Sent from iPhone 



On Jan 16, 2013, at 9:45 AM, chris jordan <[address removed]> wrote:

If what god says is true then he would should be pleased to have us verify that it is so, wouldn't he?   Is the earth flat? Is it the center of the solar system?   Think about it.  
Marlys
Why in the world do you assume the Bible is the final authority on what God wants or does not want? Because someone tells you it is that for themselves? It is merely the exposition of what men have felt, by revelation, inspiration and reason to be insights into what God wants. My own faith puts conscience before teacher. Chris
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]>
To: Provocateurs-list <[address removed]>
Sent: Sun, Jan 13,[masked]:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Provocateurs] Ted Talk - "I had an abortion... Or maybe I didn't. What does it matter?"

Chris.   Apparently I did not make myself clear.  The sentence which Michael is talking about and the sentences below it in which you I think said that without God (and I am assuming his word to us through his book the Bible') society would be free to   Determine what is moral.  Therefore it could assume that rape, incest, murder and of course abortion is moral.  Have you read Numbers 5 starting with verse 11?   How about Deuteronomy I think it is about 12 chapters after the commandment which says don't kill?  There are also many other verses where God tells people to do immoral things. 

Then there is the only unforgivable sin which the NT which Says is immoral.  
If what god says is true then he would should be pleased to have us verify that it is so, wouldn't he?   Is the earth flat? Is it the center of the solar system?   Think about it.  
Marlys

Sent from iPhone 



On Jan 12, 2013, at 11:30 AM, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:

"Finally, if God does not exist, which translates into there being no absolute morality and ethic based upon the principle of love"

You are committing the logical fallacy of begging the question with this statement.



From: Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, January 11,[masked]:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Provocateurs] Ted Talk - "I had an abortion... Or maybe I didn't. What does it matter?"

Chris.  I don't quite understand what you mean by the last sentence.  Do you  mean that whatever God says to do is moral?  So if God ordered you to rape that would be the moral thing. And if God told you to kill that would be moral.  

I also disagree with your statement that it is arrogant to seek the truth by looking for evidence.  You might want to do some research on what tests scientists have done to seek the truth about the soul.  

Marlys

Sent from iPhone 



On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:36 AM, chris jordan <[address removed]> wrote:

As a Christian I would like to offer a couple of responses. #1, within my faith we beleive the spirit (soul) is not imparted into the flesh until the child takes 3 breaths. That seals it to the flesh. But our posture on abortion goes beyond that mere issue. Abortion being a means to deal with problems, not mere convenience. Examples of problems I cited earlier as incest, sexual abuse, rape, threat to the mother and in the case of the child too young. To me, these are more or less absolute justifications for abortion.
 
A child should naturally have more "rights" than the parent because of its vulnerability. It's needs for nurturing and naturing. And even after it is born, it is not independent.
 
Heaven is horribly misconstrued imo. Life on earth is to be a place to mature. Earthly life should also be the kingdom of heaven and life after death should merely be an extension of that living. True Christians should be trying to create heaven now by how they live. Jesus did say to "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" and the formula for that was to love God, love each other, each other being everyone in the world, and forgiving our enemy, (my wife that pissed me off enough to tempt me to stop loving her in the moment is my enemy in that moment) and loving those who do us harm. Thus, forgiveness becomes a very important form of love that Christians should have learned when they accepted Jesus and were accepted by Jesus.
 
So, getting into "heaven" is not a place, but a state of mind/being. It is a travesty that so many think that dieing a Christian means that they will "enter" heaven. There may be a surprise there.
 
Believing in a soul requires no proof and is not available yet anyway. It is a statement of faith, not fact. To declare otherwise is to be illogical. To demand proof is arrogant. But our actions as people, religious and no religious, are affected and determined by our factual beleifs, our non factual beliefs, our myth structures, which even atheists have, our "common" sense that is often not common at all and our psychological makeup that has been forming since birth that no one really knows or is in control of. Plus a host of other factors like culture, ethnicity, parentage, etc etc etc.
 
Finally, if God does not exist, which translates into there being no absolute morality and ethic based upon the principle of love (best defined as living for the







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