Re: [skeptics-137] Pi Day + 3 Science and Reason Parade

From: cole morgan
Sent on: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:07 PM
The number of atheists is much higher than imagined I believe, Anna.  Besides why does the percentage matter?  Look at the black population, Jewish, Muslim......

Cole


From: Anna Smith <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Pi Day + 3 Science and Reason Parade

I can see what you mean, Cole, but I think since women are not a minority, they had more of a fighting chance. What percentage of the population are Atheists?




--- On Fri, 3/15/13, cole morgan <[address removed]> wrote:

From: cole morgan <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Pi Day + 3 Science and Reason Parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Friday, March 15, 2013, 6:06 PM

I wonder how long it would have taken women to get equal rights if that is the path they had taken, Anna they still don't have equal rights.
Cole
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android


From: Anna Smith <[address removed]>;
To: <[address removed]>;
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Pi Day + 3 Science and Reason Parade
Sent: Fri, Mar 15, 2013 5:59:03 PM

I agree, but i also think making a big stink out of this is making Atheists look bad. It sets Atheists apart, and also makes them look like they are angry and want a fight. What you want, in order to gain acceptance as a group, is to slowly blend in with society. It takes a long time. All of the examples you mentioned took many, many years. You can't force it.




--- On Fri, 3/15/13, Penelope Camel <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Penelope Camel <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Pi Day + 3 Science and Reason Parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Friday, March 15, 2013, 5:13 PM

The St. Pat's folks were basically trying to keep things complying to their theme (FUN) . . probably totally wanted to avoid controversy . . (though they GOT it anyway!) . . . . Their denying our entry might be totally legal, but it doesn't make it right.
 
Lots of Americans stopped littering and smoking in recent years.  "Shame," "education," "peer pressure" . . . . all of these influenced people changing their ways more than any "laws." . . . . . (by the way, I was taught in school that "laws" are very conservative by nature . . . . usually the mores of a group changes first, then the laws change to match them)  (Once in awhile a law will effect change . . . especially when you get the death penalty . . . . or a huge fine and/or imprisonment if you don't comply!)
 
I think the the positive role models of many talented and serving African Americans helped their acceptance more than any laws . . . . all the athletes . . . movie stars . . . performers . . . They changed the hearts of status quo white Americans.  (You actually need both . . . . those hero folk oftentimes would never have aspired to that level without changes in the law first.)
 
Penelope


From: Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Fri, March 15, 2013 11:55:01 AM
Subject: RE: [skeptics-137] Pi Day + 3 Science and Reason Parade

FYI:   Pi Day refers to 3-14 as in March 14 and seems to be a catch phrase this year, so I threw that out as a possibility for part to the title.  
 
I think if we involved the science community we would get more community participation and also send a message that we are educated people who have come to our conclusions by looking at the evidence.  We would also give recognition to that community for what they have done to make this world a better place in which to live.
 
By having a theme, we can control who is involved by requiring that people who participate comply with the theme of the parade.   We can encourage more floats by giving awards or letters of recognition or certificates which they can display.
 
I have also volunteered with Josh and Sara to head up that committee and work with Larlo, the D.J. on 96.5 the Buzz who volunteered to help with next year’s parade.
 
 
Marlys
 
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Hiten Soni, MD
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 10:02 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Pi Day + 3 Science and Reason Parade
 
I looked at the parade permit application.
 
The city fee is only $50.00.  We also have to have liability insurance for 1 million, and contract with a third part for clean up.
 
We also have to place a notice in the new paper. And notify businesses along the parade route.
 
I was in favor of calling it "Atheist pride parade"

 
Hiten Soni, MD
All things are possible.


--- On Fri, 3/15/13, Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Pi Day + 3 Science and Reason Parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Friday, March 15, 2013, 8:10 AM
Pi day + 3 is on a Monday in 2014. How is that going to affect the parade?  Maybe the name should be Pi Day +?

Marlys
 
Sent from iPhone 
 
 

On Mar 15, 2013, at 7:32 AM, Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]> wrote:
Good points Penelope Camel.  That is one reason I changed the subject.  Let’s talk about the future.
Do you think the city will let us have two parades in one day?
 
It would the save money and allow those of us who would like to celebrate and opportunity to do so. 
 
If they do, I think we should have a statement saying what we are celebrating and what we want the theme we want the entrants to focus on in this parade.  We will raise the awareness of the beneficial changes which science has given the world.     We would ask the entrants to carry a sign telling how science has benefited them in their business or organization and include that information in with their application we would have some control.  Every business should be able to think of some way scientist’s discoveries have influenced them.  The atheist could focus on words, such as evidence and define what that was and perhaps the scientific method which leads to logical thinking.  (My husband prefers that term to “critical thinking”)   We could encourage floats by offering trophies or ribbons to everyone who had a float, or even choose a first second and third place trophy
 
It would be a lot more work for the organizers, but it would be a positive message that the organizers what to celebrate the benefits which scientists have given to mankind  without pointing out that the church has tried to stop them in almost every step of the way.  Or maybe we should even allow floats that want to point out what resistance science has received from the superstitious (religious).
 
Any ideas?
 
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Penelope Camel
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 5:35 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: RE: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day Special t-shirts avaiable for the occassion.
 
Hypothetical question:  There will be a Reason and Science parade.  Will churches and religious groups (IHOP, Catholics, Fred Phelps, etc.) be allowed in it to show their viewpoint?  How would the organizers of this parade answer this?
 
Perhaps it's not so much a "discrimination" matter but one of whether or not you must allow entrants with totally opposing views to one's parade?  Should a "gun control" parade have to allow the NRA to be in it if they want?  Should an "anti-abortion" parade have to allow Planned Parenthood's participation? 
 
Should the Boy Scouts have to admit girl members?  Should Rockhurst High School have to admit girls?  (probably so . . . because it can be proven that girls are being barred from all the potential scholarships and job connections enjoyed by the guys . . .)  (That would be discrimination, I think.)
 
Etc., etc. . . . .
 
Penelope
 

 
 

From: cole morgan <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thu, March 14, 2013 5:09:13 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day Special t-shirts avaiable for the occassion.
Patrick, are you a Saint?
Cole
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
 

From: Patrick <[address removed]>;
To: <[address removed]>;
Subject: RE: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day Special t-shirts avaiable for the occassion.
Sent: Thu, Mar 14, 2013 4:38:54 PM
Hi, I am new to meet up and have been getting everyone's emails about the parade. While I am an atheist and definitely believe in humanity over a legendary deity, I do think it is ridiculous that this has been taken so far. I mean, this is definitely debasing our right in religious freedom to freely showcase our ideals and absolutely withrdawls our beliefs as a legitimate concept in reality. I really don't think that this is a debate worth arguing. It is just a parade that more of the majority of the people there aren't Irish, many can't recite why he is a saint, people get over-intoxicated and try and drive home. Girls show boobs for beads, drugs are abused as the kiss me I'm Irish shirts are worn. I highly doubt we are the only ones kept from this parade and I feel that very few takes the parade as seriously as their beer getting spilled cause of someone bumping into them or paying extra for green beer. This is an argument that would quell our intelligence in public eye for pissing and moaning about not being in a parade that few really pay attention to anyway. I am very open about my religious beliefs and get angered by dipshits like those found in the westboro baptist church, but I feel that we as atheists, should attack the general process when it is most vulnerable, when there is a vast amount of non-atheists that disagree with the treatment of our kind. This is just a parade, m.i.p.'s are given out, people get shot, people are more concerned with finding their friends than looking at floats sailing down the streets. Even if we had a float to represent our disposition to the masses, would it end like a hollywood story with people chanting "athiests" in an overjoyed and celebratory form? Does anyone really care other than those that are getting the attention? Woo, look at me, I am an atheist and I am so angry I can't ride a float down a parade that celebrates an Irish-catholic saint, now put me on t.v.! That's my ramble for today, everyone, have a good day and be safe.
Patrick   
On Mar 14, 2013 10:33 AM, "Marlys Kummer Doerflinger" <[address removed]> wrote:
“Ask An Atheist”  table
 
Sunday, March 17, 2013    10:30 until 1:00 p.m.
Pennsylvania Ave and Westport Road, Kansas City,  MO 64111
 
Wear your KCAC t-shirt to show your support or contact Josh
About purchasing a new “GREEN” t-shirt for the occasion.
Join the Kansas City Atheist Coalition for “Ask an Atheist” at the St. Patrick’s Day Parade. On the corner of Pennsylvania Avenue and Westport Road, in our snazzy blue KCAC T-shirts, we will be making ourselves available to answer questions from the public about being an atheist.

Unfortunately, KCAC was denied permission to participate in this year’s parade because, according to the Kansas City St. Patrick’s Day Parade Committee’s official statement, “Kansas City’s parade celebrates the Feast Day of St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland, and the Christian teachings and beliefs that he lived and suffered for. [ . . .] It was with respect for the legacy of St. Patrick that the parade committee turned down the Atheist Coalition’s application to participate in this year’s procession.”

Attitudes like this speak directly to the need for more “Ask an Atheist” events, where we are able to destigmatize the word “atheist” and show our community that we are happy, friendly, compassionate individuals who don’t believe in any gods, but do believe in people!

See KCAC's full response to the parade committee on the front page of our website at www.kcatheists.org
 
 
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Steve J
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 7:37 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade If a business, event, etc is open to the public
 
And I dont disagree, its just so interesting when someone talks about their rights, when my Granddad was probably more worried about losing his business and home. Of course our rights are never given to us, we have to demand them, seize them if necessary and refuse to yield even an inch. I think the anger is justified, the contrast was what really caught my attention
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]> wrote:
Steve, Thanks for your family's story.  Not all families are that supportive.  Some even disown their children for not believing.  That is the reason so many nonbelievers are still closeted.  That is also the reason there are laws to protect those classes of people who have not been treated fairly in the past.  
 
Yes, the country is becoming more all inclusive and "loving Christians" are being criticized for their hateful attitude.  That is why there is such an outcry from the media over the denial of the KCAC participating in the parade.  I am certain that this would not be happening in the 1950's and 60's. The outcry is a good thing. 
 

Marlys
 
Sent from iPhone 
 
 

On Mar 14, 2013, at 4:29 AM, Steve J <[address removed]> wrote:
I've been reading these over the last few days and while I found the parade thing to be annoying but i wanted to include some perspective
 
its kinda long, but bear with me.
My Granddad was born in Omaha in 1920 and shortly thereafter, the family moved to Red Oak Iowa. While he was raised as a congregationalist, his father was not religious and he opted out of religion in his teens. He had never been very religious, but everyone attended church, especially during the Great Depression. When WWII broke out, he joined the Navy, and since the job paid more, he opted for the Submarine Corps. There are atheists in steel cans as well as foxholes. He served in the Pacific Theater and brought back two blankets from fellow submariners  who are "still on patrol". I've always found that to be a powerful sentiment. He was soon married and started a business in Red Oak. His business "Unity Welding and Supply" operated for 60 years. He built bridges, pipelines and a cornstalk once. Its at the Shelby, Iowa exit and stands 76 feet tall. He remained an atheist until his death, he "came out" when he was in his late 60's.
The family still went to a Congregationalist Church. In 1950's America, to be an atheist was to be a "Red", to be a "Red", even in Red Oak, would have guaranteed the family pariah status, he would have lost his business and who knows what more. All three of his daughters are atheists as was my dad.
 
 He was a Broker/Owner of Jensen& Jensen Realty with his father, a man who really was more interested in profit than prophets.My dad was an avowed atheist as are his two brothers  The business was successful and they were both men of character, on more than one occasion my dad ommitted his percentage in order to get a deal done. He truly believed in home ownership and he truly believed that the result was a stronger community. We didnt attend church, but during that time 1970s and 80s it wasnt that odd, The fact that Sundays was for Open Houses and showings would have been excuse enough had anyone inquired. 
 
When I wanted to go to church with my friends, he would give me money for the bowl. He didnt mention his beliefs and never questioned my reasons for attending. My friends were there, that was enough for me. It was odd though, being in the church and listening to bible stories being told as though they really had happened. it would have felt the same had it been Zeus instead of Jesus. It was a strange realization, religion became a real thing to me. People in the world didnt simply tell each other these stories, they really believed them! 
My mom was an RN and our social circle included doctors who weren't always from America. We associated with Hindus  Jews, Muslims and other non-believers, I had friends who were atheists and still are. I never apologized for my lack of faith and was "out" as long as I can remember.
 
 I was spoiled and didn't realize it until I moved to Oklahoma. Every business card and billboard had an icthys, I learned the term "once saved, always saved" and I was discriminated against. It didn't stop me from discussing it, if anything I discussed it more, challenging their beliefs. I had an acquaintance who said that being an atheist was "worse than being a nigger". That's Oklahoma in a nutshell, I've never stopped defending a rationalist worldview and ill gladly state my religious beliefs should anyone ask, While here in KC i've lost friends and girlfriends due to my apostasy. 
I've never felt that my safety or well being was threatened by my beliefs, have never had a direct threat and i don't worry about losing my house or my job. I'll never have to worry about someone calling me a "Red". 
While there are valid reasons to be upset regarding the parade, KCs atheist community is strong, supportive and full of genuinely good people. It'll improve at it could certainly be worse.
 
My Dad and Granddad were buried with military honors and no mention of god as was my Grandmother, but without "Taps". At my dad's funeral we played Dave Brubeck, Ahmad Jamal and the Modern Jazz Quartet and wiped out the liquor cabinet. My mom and her two sisters are nurses who served their patients with care and compassion, and without god. 
I'm proud of my family and proud to be a rationalist and an atheist. Those who hate or despise us or refuse to march with us don't fully appreciate who we are, what we stand for or what they're up against.
 
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]> wrote:
If a business, event, etc is open to the public, it cannot discriminate based on the protected classes of RACE, RELIGION (WHICH ALSO INCLUDES THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AS A CLASS) and NATIONAL ORIGIN.
A sentence from the article which I sent around under this subject earlier today. 
“He added the act temporarily violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which forbids discrimination based on race, religion and national origin. He expects no legal action against Gelato Mio, especially as Drennan had publicly apologized.”
 
 
Remember the ice cream shop which refused to serve skeptics for about 10 minute at the Skepticon  in Springfield a couple of years ago.
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Hiten Soni, MD
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:48 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade
 
Di I looked up. You have to pay $50.00 parade fee. And pay for parade escort who determines the parade speed and pay for the traffic control assistance. 
 
Have to produce a clean up services agreement with a 3rd party.
Hiten Soni, MD

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Anna Smith <[address removed]> wrote:
They do pay a fee to the city for police and cleanup.

--- On Tue, 3/12/13, Hiten Soni, MD <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Hiten Soni, MD <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013, 11:11 PM
Are they paying for police salaries? Public traffic is closed while they use city streets for religious purposes. That would appear to violate the "establishment" clause. 
 
Dies The fee they pay cover ALL the cost incurred by the city?
 
Would government allow a mahorum parade for Muslim residents of the city?
 
Would the government close all the city street for a Hindu Ganesh parade?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 12, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Anna Smith <[address removed]> wrote:
But, public funds are not being used. The parade organization pays the city a fee, and pays for all cleanup, etc. It is a privately funded event.



--- On Tue, 3/12/13, Hiten Soni, MD <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Hiten Soni, MD <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013, 9:50 PM
Its not about winning or loosing. Its about public funds being spent on religious celebration and exluding other taxpayors whose money is being spent,
 
Point is not to be in the parade but get the attention to discrimination.
Hiten Soni, MD
All things are possible.


--- On Tue, 3/12/13, Anna Smith <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Anna Smith <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013, 2:30 PM
I don't think Atheists would win such a law suit. After all, the whole day, and parade is based on a Catholic saint. They have a right to celebrate their religious day without interference from dissenters.



--- On Tue, 3/12/13, Kansas City Skeptic <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Kansas City Skeptic <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013, 7:21 PM
Hence, the St. Patrick's parade is fucked.... They can be sued based on the mission they have as a community promoting organization.
 
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Anna Smith <[address removed]> wrote:
I don't know where that mission statement was found, but I found the following on their Facebook page. All it says is people from different ethnic backgrounds, it does not mention religion.

About

In 1973 a group of friends meeting for a quick (or otherwise) drink and a bit of conversation at Hogerty’s Cocktail Lounge in downtown Kansas City decided a Parade downtown was just what the City needed; and so it began again.
Mission
The Kansas City St. Patrick’s Day Parade Committee
exists to promote the City’s annual St. Patrick’s
Day Parade, a nationally recognized event that
fosters a greater awareness of the metropolitan
area’s rich Irish heritage, and supports many local
humanitarian, social and cultural endeavors.

The Kansas City St. Patrick’s Day Parade Committee
is committed to:

1. Presenting a fun, safe and family friendly parade
2. Providing opportunities for Irish organizations
and individuals, as well as people from all ethnic
backgrounds, to participate in the Parade and
compete in the various prize categories
3. Effectively managing the marketing, logistics
and finances of the Parade and related fund
raising events throughout the year
4. Supporting local humanitarian agencies such
as Harvesters Community Food Network and
Children’s Mercy Hospital
5. Creating a greater sense of community among
Americans of Irish descent and all other ethnic
groups that uniquely contribute to the quality
and vitality of the Kansas City area
Company Overview
The Kansas City St. Patrick’s Day Parade is organized and staffed by a group of private volunteers devoted to providing Kansas City with a family-oriented parade celebrating the Irish heritage of our city and citizens. The Parade Committee is a non-profit 501C3 corporation.


--- On Tue, 3/12/13, Kansas City Skeptic <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Kansas City Skeptic <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013, 6:09 PM
The mission statemenet of the parade says - open to all, Irish or not, Catholic or not.
 
 
 
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Anna Smith <[address removed]> wrote:
But, it's not just Irish, it is Irish Catholic. I would be willing to be that they deny other religious groups, because there are at least 20 that participate in the Shawnee Days Parade, and i'd be willing to bet they would love to be in the St. Pats Parade. I don't think this is something to get too upset or make a big deal about, as in sue. Things like that just make Atheists look bad.

--- On Tue, 3/12/13, Kansas City Skeptic <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Kansas City Skeptic <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013, 3:13 PM
Williard brings an interestign point - if we had some Irish atheists agnostics and Freethinkers and maybe even Fred :o) can find some Irish ancestry in his Chrsitian freethinking background, the parade can be pressured without goign to court.
 
 
 
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Willard <[address removed]> wrote:
no one has mentioned Irish atheists, agnosticists, nonbelievers etc.
 
From: LarryJ <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day parade
Here's a link to the parade Entry Packet for 2013:  http://kcirishparade.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/EntryPacket_2013.pdf  While they do seem to allow various sorts of groups, there doesn't seem to be any explicit requirement to being either Irish or Catholic.  They do reserve the right to refuse groups.  I wonder how they would have reacted to a Jewish organization wanting to march, or an Islamic group, or a Sikh group, etc.?  Would they refuse Fred Phelps and his merry men?  What about an LGBT group?  Just wondering . . .

To the extent that taxpayer dollars go to maintaining traffic control, civil order, street clean-up, etc., seems that the organizers would have to be careful of making this a patently religious celebration or one might argue separation of church and state. 

Oh well, there may still be time for the Easter Parade . . .
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Anna Smith <[address removed]> wrote:
Yes, but i don't remember seeing any religious organizations other than Catholic. I know several Catholic schools march in the parade.

--- On Tue, 3/12/13, Penelope Camel <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Penelope Camel <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [skeptics-137] Atheists denied participation in the St. Patrick's Day paradeTo: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013, 3:20 AM




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