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Web Performance @ Meetup offices - Hello, fellow web standardistas! I though some of you might be interested in next Web Performance Group session - this time we're invited to Meetup offices! November Sergey Chernyshev Nov 11, 2009 11:09 AM
Meetup details changed: HTML5 Part Three: Session, local storage, Web databases, and application cache - Sorry everyone; I copied last month's event and failed to update the date! HTML5 Part Three will not be on Monday, the 23rd of November. It will be on Thursday, the 19th of November. I apologize for the inconvenience/spam. Thanks, J Jeffrey Barke Nov 9, 2009 1:06 PM
New Meetup: HTML5 Part Three: Session, local storage, Web databases, and application cache - Announcing a new Meetup for The New York Web Standards Meetup Group! What: HTML5 Part Three: Session, local storage, Web databases, and application cache When: November 23, 2009 7:00 PM Where: theMechanism 440 9t Jeffrey Barke Nov 9, 2009 11:35 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Open standards and security - My work has been mostly smaller microsites - we're slowly getting into more complex sites where security is a bigger issue. So my thoughts are general rather than specific. To my mind, the number one benefit of standards is that it reduces complexi Philip Schweiger Nov 3, 2009 10:13 AM
Open standards and security - Hi List, This is an open ended question for discussion. To what extent does having open standards for web security enhance reliable security? Is it better to have transparent standards for browser security, etc. than to obscure security requiremen Jerome Covington Nov 3, 2009 9:30 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] New Meetup: HTML email best practices - I would like to find a Web Developer who has done the work for setting up OPAC (online cataloging system  and electronic resources for a small library. and also the system for circulation of books to update whenever the book is checked out. (usually by IL S Kang Nov 2, 2009 7:58 PM
New Meetup: 10gen CEO & DoubleClick Co-Founder presenting MongoDB, high-performance SQL-free database - MongoDB, hig Eric David Benari Oct 29, 2009 3:42 PM
We have a winner! - At last month's meetup, HTML5 Part Two: Canvas, Web Forms 2.0, Audio and Video, we did a business-card drawing for Designing with Web Standards, Third Edition by Jeffrey Zeldman and Vicky Heinlein is our lucky winner! Unfortunately, DWWS3E is n Jeffrey Barke Oct 22, 2009 11:06 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Advocating for Web Standards Best Practices within an Enterprise Environment - Franksly, If it's internal app, then you don't need standards. I mean "using IE7 and Web Sphere" is enough of the standard if you can mandate it. Obviously, if company values cross-platform development to be able to reduce integration costs or wants Sergey Chernyshev Oct 20, 2009 7:11 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Advocating for Web Standards Best Practices within an Enterprise Environment - One key to success is presenting/advocating with an aim toward how this will benefit the client. Standards for standards' sake is not going to impress anyone outside of our field. Selling standards as part of an SEO strategy, though, may net you more Philip Schweiger Oct 20, 2009 6:07 PM
Advocating for Web Standards Best Practices within an Enterprise Environment - Hey List! Surely I can't be the only one experiencing these frustrations. I work non-stop trying to advocate for best practices in web development, currently focused on the Front End perspective, in an environment built up around IBM's WebSphere a Jerome Covington Oct 20, 2009 5:32 PM
New Meetup: HTML email best practices - Announcing a new Meetup for The New York Web Standards Meetup Group! What: HTML email best practices When: October 22, 2009 7:00 PM Where: theMechanism 440 9th Avenue 8th Floor Manhattan, NY 10001 212.4 Jeffrey Barke Oct 19, 2009 12:50 PM
Win a free ticket to Percona's MySQL InnoDB + XtraDB Training ($450.00 value!) - Eric David Benari Oct 7, 2009 2:23 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Refactoring as it relates to Front-End Dev - Yes the book is Java based and Fowler does suggest that unit tests are a pre-requisite. Still, I have done a lot of refactoring w Peter Booth Sep 22, 2009 5:20 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Refactoring as it relates to Front-End Dev - Right. A style guide is a must. But I am speaking here of refactoring existing code, and some practical steps to that end. Writing a style guide, to me, speaks more to a site redesign. On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Joe Sepi wro Jerome Covington Sep 22, 2009 3:48 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Refactoring as it relates to Front-End Dev - On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Jerome Covington wrote: > Hi List, > > I'd like to start a discussion on Refactoring, specifically as it > relates to Front-End Dev. > > I'm curious about the Refactoring book, by Martin john campbell Sep 22, 2009 3:24 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Refactoring as it relates to Front-End Dev - I second this topic as a potential Meetup discussion, and can offer some of the experiences of my company (The Knot) -- though, I can't compare to the book, as I also haven't read it. I'd love to hear other company's experiences. Marco Carag Sep 22, 2009 3:10 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Refactoring as it relates to Front-End Dev - start with a well thought out, comprehensive style guide for all common elements and layouts, including font size/spacing/family etc. probably obvious, but i can attest to how fast a site can get off the tracks when you don't have a consistent style re Joe Sepi Sep 22, 2009 3:08 PM
Refactoring as it relates to Front-End Dev - Hi List, I'd like to start a discussion on Refactoring, specifically as it relates to Front-End Dev. I'm curious about the Refactoring book, by Martin Fowler, but have not read it. I would like to apply a disciplined sequence of steps to approach Jerome Covington Sep 22, 2009 2:50 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - This thread suggests a meetup topic to me. Anyone interested in presenting on server-side JS? Jeffrey Barke Sep 15, 2009 3:00 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - But that's exactly what causes the problem - to build a reliable single-language thing you need to have a language that is universal which never happened yet, plus you need good adoption which will not happen unless you have a ready system. I Sergey Chernyshev Sep 15, 2009 2:59 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - Ah, but when you have a small team of web developers who can do well both back-end and front-end work (I'm in this category) not having the mode switch of language when going from front to back is appealing. And a language is a language. If someon Scott Trudeau Sep 15, 2009 2:45 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - All the attempts at using JS on a server side I saw so far didn't go anywhere and I'm not positive it's a good approach in general - don't think that JS developer role is across the application, there is nothing wrong in having different t Sergey Chernyshev Sep 15, 2009 2:32 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - The difference between Jaxer (or any server-side JS option) and Ruby (or php or perl or python) is that the universe of small & large scale production deployments of the latter is much, much larger than that of the former, so the most common snarl Scott Trudeau Sep 15, 2009 10:32 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - There are other scripting languages (e.g. Ruby) whose limits are arguably wider ... On Sep 14, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jerome Covington wrote: > At this point I am not concerned with reliability. I am concerned with > pushing the limits of what can Peter Booth Sep 14, 2009 9:12 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - That sounds good! Will be happy to hear what your experience is after the project.         Sergey On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Jerome Covington < Sergey Chernyshev Sep 14, 2009 2:19 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - At this point I am not concerned with reliability. I am concerned with pushing the limits of what can be accomplished with one scripting language. On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Sergey Chernyshev wrote: Jerome Covington Sep 14, 2009 1:00 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - JS on backend is not necessarily a best solution - using regular languages and JSON-ification tools might be more reliable.         Sergey On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Jerome Covington Sergey Chernyshev Sep 14, 2009 12:17 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - I'm interested in seeing how far I can go with JS, especially after seeing a simple templating framework detailed in "Secrets of the JavaScript Ninja". So going after a project that uses JS end to end is an exciting prospect. On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at Jerome Covington Sep 14, 2009 11:52 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Jaxer - Preview not available Adam Sep 11, 2009 11:25 PM
Jaxer - I'm looking at building a webapp using Jaxer, and would like to hear from anyone with experience hosting Jaxer in Aptana's cloud, or other options. -- Regards, Jerome [address removed] http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeromecovington http://d Jerome Covington Sep 11, 2009 6:25 PM
New Meetup: HTML5 Part Two: Canvas, Web Forms 2.0, Audio and Video - Announcing a new Meetup for The New York Web Standards Meetup Group! What: HTML5 Part Two: Canvas, Web Forms 2.0, Audio and Video When: September 24, 2009 7:00 PM Where: theMechanism 440 9th Avenue 8th Floor Jeffrey Barke Sep 8, 2009 2:14 PM
New Meetup: Getting started with HTML5 - Announcing a new Meetup for The New York Web Standards Meetup Group! What: Getting started with HTML5 When: August 27, 2009 7:00 PM Where: theMechanism 440 9th Avenue 8th Floor Manhattan, NY 10001 212.4 Jeffrey Barke Aug 13, 2009 2:21 PM
Hey - Preview not available Marcia Jul 13, 2009 3:05 AM
Apologies for spamming the entire meetup mailing list - Looking for a Development Partner / Social Media / B2B Startup jcvaughan Jul 2, 2009 12:32 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Looking for a Development Partner / Social Media / B2B Startup - Looking for a Development Partner / Social Media / B2B Startup jcvaughan Jul 2, 2009 11:39 AM
Looking for a Development Partner / Social Media / B2B Startup - Looking for a Development Partner / Social Media / B2B Startup Small interactive firm looking for well rounded developer to becom Fabian Taylor Jul 1, 2009 12:17 PM
[JOB] PHP 5 Developer, New York City | 80-90k - PHP 5 Developer, New York City | 80-90k This is a full time, on-site, salaried position located in New York City. The developer's role in the firm is a critical one. You will play an integral part in helping to develop new products and improve OSS Jun 25, 2009 12:51 AM
Seeking Talented Lead Engineer - Preview not available San Kim Jun 24, 2009 11:34 AM
T-P Opportunity - Lisa Jun 22, 2009 3:44 PM
Web Performance for PHP Developers @ Etsy Labs - Dear Web Standardistas: It was nice meeting many of you at Jeff's talk last week. I'm sorry to bug you with messages from another Meetup, but I thought many of you will be interested in topic of our June 16th event. We'r Sergey Chernyshev Jun 1, 2009 5:41 PM
Meetup details changed: Overview and review of CSS frameworks - Due to unforeseen circumstances, we have had to reschedule tonight's meetup, Overview and review of CSS frameworks, to next Thursday, 28 May 2009. Jeffrey Barke, a developer and not a designer at theMechanism has worked with Web application and Jeffrey Barke May 21, 2009 10:41 AM
Thanks for attending the Web Typography meetup - Thanks to everyone who made it to last night's presentation by Christy Gurga on Web typography! Christy's slides are available at Jeffrey Barke Apr 17, 2009 3:07 PM
Typography for the Web and an HTTP challenge! - The New York Web Standards Meetup Group will meet tonight, 16 April 2009, at theMechanism at 7:00 pm to hear Christy Gurga present on Web Typography. This meetup is currently full and has a *long* waiting list, so if you can't make it, please u Jeffrey Barke Apr 16, 2009 1:14 PM
OSCON registration discount - For those interested in attending OSCON, please let me know. I have a discount code for 20% off the registration price via Marsee, our O'Reilly user group representative. OSCON 2009 July 20-24, 2009 San Jose McEnery Convention Center Jeffrey Barke Apr 2, 2009 4:28 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Web performance presentation - Thanks Jeff and Dave of theMechanism for hosting me! Thanks to all attendees for coming to the presentation, I hope it was informative and worked as a call to action. If you have any questions or need help with your performance optimization pr Sergey Chernyshev Mar 20, 2009 3:33 PM
Web performance presentation - Thanks to everyone who made it to last night's presentation on Web Performance by Sergey Chernyshev. And special thanks to Sergey for doing a great job! Sergey's slides are available at Jeffrey Barke Mar 20, 2009 1:54 PM
(( A NEW POLL )) - Hi Standardistas and Standardistettes! We assume that many of you may be at SXSW this week, so have fun! We wanted to bring to your attention a new poll that we've put up which we hope you will take the time to answer. It will help us impr Dave Fletcher Mar 16, 2009 2:33 PM
Google New York City Geo APIs Hackathon - I'm not sure if there's still space, but Google is having a hackathon for Google Geo APIs (Google Maps and Earth) on March 5th, 3-9pm at the Google Manhattan offices, 111 8th Avenue at 15th street. You will be given guidance on building Google Geo Applica Jeffrey Barke Feb 27, 2009 4:18 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Google Maps API presentation - Great stuff, Jeff, It reminded me of bookmarklet I made to do the opposite - grab current coordinates for map and street view on Google Maps. I just updated it (it needed fixing after latest Google updates) to work in YUI dialog - you can se Sergey Chernyshev Feb 27, 2009 4:07 PM
Google Maps API presentation - Thanks to everyone who made it to last night's presentation on the Google Maps API! I had a great time and appreciated the conversation afterwards. This weekend I'll be working on and posting tutorials to explain the demos I showed last night. Jeffrey Barke Feb 27, 2009 11:53 AM
Canonical URLs and PHP's Fileinfo - I wrote a couple of posts recently that might be of interest to Web developers. The first was on canonical URLs and the second was on the Fileinfo extension for PHP. Google, Yahoo and Microsoft now support a new value for the rel attribute of t Jeffrey Barke Feb 26, 2009 11:21 AM
NY Web Standards Meetup: Typography for the Web (16 April) - I've updated this Meetup. For more details, see the full listing: http://www.meetup.com/standardista/calendar/9593116/ Christy Gurga (theMechanism) will present different p Jeffrey Barke Jan 27, 2009 12:33 PM
10gen's MongoDB this Thursday - The New York Web Standards Meetup Group will meet this Thursday (22 January 2009) at theMechanism at 7:00 pm. Geir Magnusson (10gen) will talk about 10gen's MongoDB, an object-oriented DBMS. It is neither a relational database nor even "ta Jeffrey Barke Jan 20, 2009 2:25 PM
O'Reilly Webcast: Advanced Twitter for Business - If anyone is interested in this $99 dollar webcast, email me. I have a discount code for 35% off the listed price. Advanced Twitter for Business Conversation, Community, and Profit--140 Characters at a Time Presented by Sarah M Jeffrey Barke Jan 16, 2009 10:47 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] GUI clients for Subversion and CVS - Thanks Sergey! And thanks for the great talk, Scott! I posted notes of last night's meeting: http://jonathanpberger.com/wp/2008/12/081204-small-web-team-collaboration-with-svn-creating-designer-and-developer-love/ On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:29 AM, jonathanpberger Dec 5, 2008 11:50 AM
GUI clients for Subversion and CVS - Guys, First of all, thanks to Scott for yesterday presentation! It was very interesting to see how Subversion is being used in small teams. Also, big thanks to responses from other participants as it helps a lot to understand what kind of problems Sergey Chernyshev Dec 5, 2008 11:29 AM
Re: Small Web Team Collaboration with Subversion this Thursday - Nater Kane Dec 3, 2008 10:19 AM
Small Web Team Collaboration with Subversion this Thursday - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Dec 2, 2008 11:03 AM
NY Web Standards Meetup: Thanks! - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Oct 31, 2008 9:56 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] (( Everyone Ready to "KICK ARSE" with JQuery? )) - Preview not available Geir Magnusson Jr Oct 30, 2008 11:29 AM
RE: [webstandards-118] (( Everyone Ready to "KICK ARSE" with JQuery? )) - Diego f Arbelaez Oct 30, 2008 11:10 AM
(( Everyone Ready to "KICK ARSE" with JQuery? )) - Good morning Standardistas and Standardistettes, As you may or may not know, we've got a meetup tonight and we're filled to capacity. With that said, I'd like to ask that you double (and triple check) your schedules to be sure that Dave Fletcher Oct 30, 2008 9:06 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Cloud computing news: Rackspace buys Jungledisk & Slicehos - On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Sam IT wrote: > Hi John, > I was thinking to move 3 servers to Rackspace. > Could you share your experience with them? There support was okay: there is a bit of a phone tree, and about 30% of the john campbell Oct 23, 2008 12:55 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Cloud computing news: Rackspace buys Jungledisk & Slicehos - I'm a rackspace customer, and an early beta adopter of CloudFiles, and I've been very happy with the service so far. Right now what CloudFiles really lacks is any sort of administrative front end. So the acquisition of a company like Jungle Disk a Chris Henry Oct 23, 2008 12:22 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Cloud computing news: Rackspace buys Jungledisk & Slicehos - Hi John, I was thinking to move 3 servers to Rackspace. Could you share your experience with them? Thank you, Sam IT On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 1 Sam IT Oct 23, 2008 12:02 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Cloud computing news: Rackspace buys Jungledisk & Slicehos - On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Joe Devon wrote: > I think this is fabulous news. Some competition to Amazon to make things more interesting... As a very happy slicehost customer, and an angry Rackspace ex-customer, I think t john campbell Oct 23, 2008 11:36 AM
Cloud computing news: Rackspace buys Jungledisk & Slicehost - Preview not available Joe Devon Oct 23, 2008 10:22 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Preventing infinite recursion in JS? - Yep, my bad. I was using such approach for loading from remote scripts where you never new which one loads first and it's not like that in the execution scheme. Sorry for wrong advice. & Sergey Chernyshev Oct 16, 2008 12:54 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Preventing infinite recursion in JS? - Thanks to all for your feedback; very helpful. Philip On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Tim Helck < [address removed] &g Philip Schweiger Oct 16, 2008 11:35 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Preventing infinite recursion in JS? - I suspect that instaValidate is not resolving the source of the onFocus event. On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 6:18 PM, john camp Tim Helck Oct 15, 2008 8:47 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Preventing infinite recursion in JS? - On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Sergey Chernyshev wrote: > > > validator = function() > { > callback = empty; > > ... some validating code ... > > callback = validator; > } > > john campbell Oct 14, 2008 6:18 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Preventing infinite recursion in JS? - On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Philip Schweiger wrote: > assigns the instaValidate function to each form element > activates on element focus > checks to see if the previous element is required and blank. I think the event y john campbell Oct 14, 2008 5:55 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Preventing infinite recursion in JS? - It's probably the best to run only one validator at a time - the best way is probably at the beginning of validator, just replace itself with empty function and replace it back with itself once it's done. Something like thi Sergey Chernyshev Oct 14, 2008 5:48 PM
Preventing infinite recursion in JS? - Hey standaristi and standariste, Was wondering if anyone had tips for preventing infinite recursions in javascript? I'm trying to see if I can make an improvement on the standard JS form valid Philip Schweiger Oct 14, 2008 5:21 PM
O'Reilly survey - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Oct 14, 2008 3:53 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] (( BEST PC LAPTOP FOR STANDARDISTAS? )) - Preview not available dee scott Oct 8, 2008 7:59 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] (( BEST PC LAPTOP FOR STANDARDISTAS? )) - Preview not available Alan Oct 7, 2008 5:18 PM
RE: [webstandards-118] (( BEST PC LAPTOP FOR STANDARDISTAS? )) - Ning Zhou Oct 7, 2008 4:52 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] (( BEST PC LAPTOP FOR STANDARDISTAS? )) - I've always liked Lenovo (nee IBM) ThinkPads. Solid, reliable and well supported, if not sexy. On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Dave Fletcher < Scott Trudeau Oct 7, 2008 4:51 PM
(( BEST PC LAPTOP FOR STANDARDISTAS? )) - Standardistas and Standardistettes, I have a question to post to the group and hope you can help. We're getting a PC Laptop in the office for a new developer. Since I've always been a Mac user and my choices as a Mac user limit me t Dave Fletcher Oct 7, 2008 4:37 PM
Cloud computing - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Oct 3, 2008 1:19 PM
WordCamp NY 2008 - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Sep 24, 2008 12:09 PM
New Meetup: Introduction to Kicking Ass with jQuery - Announcing a new Meetup for The New York Web Standards Meetup Group! What: Introduction to Kicking Ass with jQuery When: October 30, 2008 7:00 PM Where: Click the link below to find out! Meetup Description: Scot Jeffrey Barke Sep 4, 2008 5:15 PM
Seek CTO / Business Partner - We are seeking an energetic CTO / Business Partner / Co-Founder to architect and execute a B2B web-based solution, which will solve critical pain points as media fragmentation accelerates and a Must-Have (vs. "Nice-Have") solution for customers. The re LC Aug 22, 2008 8:07 PM
50 Free Internet Tools for Tin-Foil Hat Wearers - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Aug 19, 2008 9:50 AM
Review of Google I/O materials - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Jul 25, 2008 4:15 PM
Meetup details changed: Cloud computing - Update to September's cloud computing meetup: Paul Westcott (10gen) will talk about 10gen's open source cloud computing SDK Platform which just went alpha. Learn more: http://www.10gen.com Jeffrey Barke Jul 25, 2008 2:26 PM
New Meetup: Introduction to Ajax - Announcing a new Meetup for The New York Web Standards Meetup Group! What: Introduction to Ajax When: August 28, 2008 7:00 PM Where: Click the link below to find out! Meetup Description: Margaret Michele Waldman Jeffrey Barke Jul 25, 2008 1:11 PM
New Meetup: Cloud computing - Announcing a new Meetup for The New York Web Standards Meetup Group! What: Cloud computing When: September 25, 2008 7:00 PM Where: Click the link below to find out! Meetup Description: Jeffrey Barke, senior deve Jeffrey Barke Jul 25, 2008 10:31 AM
Review of Google I/O at theMechanism this Thursday - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Jul 21, 2008 8:06 AM
WebAnywhere - A web based screen reader - John Moynihan Jul 18, 2008 5:32 PM
Density map tutorial—Prototype, Google Maps API and the HeatMapAPI - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Jul 14, 2008 9:02 AM
Version control smackdown redux and Opera Web standards curriculum - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Jul 8, 2008 1:26 PM
Version control smackdown - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Jul 7, 2008 5:45 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Yahoo Accessibility Video - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Jun 30, 2008 11:45 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Yahoo Accessibility Video - hi everyone, the "location-based social networking" site i was talking about last week is: http://brightkite.com/ i have invites if anyone's interested so let me know. Jeffrey: woul Matt Jun 30, 2008 10:38 AM
Re: [webstandards-118] Yahoo Accessibility Video - Good links! Added to http://isoc-ny.org/wiki/Accessibility_resources Flash can cause problems One of my blind friends, a musician, has recently been ranting about recent moves by MySpace that make their music player totally un-Jaws friendly. Joly MacFie Jun 27, 2008 1:39 PM
Re: [webstandards-118] Yahoo Accessibility Video - Preview not available Jeffrey Barke Jun 27, 2008 11:12 AM
Yahoo Accessibility Video - As promised, here is a link to the video by a blind Yahoo! engineer who demos Jaws and discusses accessibility: http://video.yahoo.com/watch/514676/2686894 While on the topic of Yahoo! and Accessibility, Isolani, a Yahoo! engineer in Europe has a Joe Devon Jun 27, 2008 8:13 AM
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