Why is "alternative"­ health so readily accepted?

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Reiki and other "alternative" health practices so readily accepted by otherwise rational people?

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  • Karen A.

    Dave, are you concerned because this person withdrew? I think she was only interested in talking about reiki and was upset when we challenged her. So like Jean said, she probably wasn't in the right group.

    Also, I think the initial description of the topic, before the meeting, was appropriate, and didn't give the impression that it was going to be a pep rally for alternative health programs.

    January 5, 2014

    • Scooter D.

      As a group we need to decribe ourselves to visitors that are thinking of attending a new mtg. What is our expectation of them, of ourselves? Dale wrote something very loose, and Thinkers is not MY group, so we can keep it or change it, but I insist that our actions match our advertisements. Do we screen visitors for a skill and attitude, or do we teach them how to discuss logically? I have experienced MENSA, Tea Party and others where some were hounded out, AFTER they, joined, paid dues, came to mtgs, etc. Lets, as a group decide what we do, then walk the talk so new visitors get what they expect.

      January 5, 2014

    • Scooter D.

      Lets move this discussion to the discussion board. It has nothing to do with alternative health.

      January 9, 2014

  • Ponce G.

    I couldn't agree more J.M. about some people who let their ego grow so large and cannot be challenged, they need to get themselves in the reallity.

    January 5, 2014

    • Jean M.

      It does seem that some folks, do have trouble discerning the difference
      between their opinion
      and an indisputable fact. This seems to be at the root of many disagreements,
      is,
      someone seems to feel their opinion is a 'fact'....to the point, that they can not even HEAR or respond to an idea that does not match their idea....

      this level of discourse can make it hard to stay logical, imo.

      January 9, 2014

  • Ponce G.

    I, m saying in general idea not specific to anyone, in fact I don't even know who is the person that left. We should keep our open mind when open conversation and we can learn something from each other. That what I thought this group is about, be kind to one another even when we see thing differently.

    January 5, 2014

    • Scooter D.

      Well it depends on tone, word choice, sarcasm vd direct, confronting vs seeking areas of agreement. Saying that "questioning someone's idea is not attacking" gets universal agreement, until we each personally inspect and define the term "question" and "insult". Logical, rational discussion requires agreement on terms. Who likes apple pie? ME. Its covered in mold and roaches. MAYBE NOT. So "questions" are like Apple pie, the May be tasty and desired, or disgusting and offensive, all descibed by the same term

      January 7, 2014

    • Jean M.

      dave I completely agree, there IS a difference, Dave, between attacking the Person, and attacking the idea, Dave. Totally agree with ya there, Dave....lol

      January 9, 2014

  • Bharat P.

    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/39a015c6-6bc7-11e3-85b1-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2pMkdkCO6

    I am aware of few people who tried out this group and dropped out
    but that remains an individual choice and does not necessarily reflect on the group. I am reading Moral tribes reviewed in FT, may interest some of you.

    January 5, 2014

  • A former member
    A former member

    Maybe I am wrong group, maybe not returned. I'm wasting my time here, I withdraw. BYE.

    December 31, 2013

    • Brent

      I agree with the OP...and Jean. If you're not ready to have your ideas challenged, you're in the wrong group. You should probably join a group where everyone sits around agreeing with each other, and is kicked out if they don't, like a church.

      1 · January 4, 2014

    • Scooter D.

      I feel that everyone in the group should read this thread. We need to publish a group description for people thinking of joining, and guidelines for discussions and threads.

      1 · January 5, 2014

  • Karen A.

    Everyone made interesting contributions. I just happened across this article on supplements:
    http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/physicians-urge-americans-stop-wasting-money-supplements

    1 · December 16, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Sallow, is the word I should have used. I was NOT referring to tan vs. no tan,
      there do exist shades of paleness or sallowness---that even lay people recognize as possible indicators that THAT human might be
      malnourished
      or unhealthy
      or even sick. I wasn't referring to "tan" Brent. that wasn't what I meant at all.

      1 · January 4, 2014

    • Brent

      Ah, okay. :-)

      1 · January 4, 2014

  • Bharat P.

    January 3, 2014

    • Jean M.

      fascinating!! I have a new pal in my new neighborhood here, who is reading that very book. I read this article with much interest.

      I will probably re-read this same article again, too.

      Many interesting ideas in the article, but
      I particularly found THIS interesting,
      //""For that also, we must investigate," the Dalai Lama says. "Through investigation we must get sure that person is truly reliable." He wags a finger in Alexander's direction. When a man makes extraordinary claims, a "thorough investigation" is required, to ensure "that person reliable, never telling lie," and has "no reason to lie."//

      Read more: Dr. Eben Alexander Proof of Heaven Investigation - Proof of Heaven Factual Omissions - Esquire
      Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook
      Visit us at Esquire.com

      January 4, 2014

    • Brent

      If you read the last line of the article Bharat posted, it notes about love: "It's natural, meaningful, and important -- and, oh yeah, it's also all in our heads." That's exactly what I was saying! While what's in our heads drives our actions, if we were just minds, love would have no direct effect on the physical world.

      As for hope, same thing applies. And as for not having it left when we've lost everything else, sometimes the hope goes too...which is why we have suicides. Being the last thing we lose doesn't mean it can't be lost as well, and often it's the loss of not everything, but a category of things, that causes lost hope - loss of your only job/relationship/close family member/etc., or even the belief that your last possibility is lost. I never claimed it was a rational thing; in fact, love, hope, and faith are probably the three most irrational emotions we have.

      December 30, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Whether or not love is the rational kind
      or the irrational kind,
      it does exist, and it does impact one's reality.

      Your reality, and mine, could be different.
      Love very well may have impacted our survival as a species.... The possible evolutionary advantage of human love and pairbonding,
      is also a fascinating subject to explore. I completely agree that love, in the noun form of the word---- like all our ideas-----
      is completely held within our skulls, absolutely!!
      ........... all of our entire being, seems to be held in the neurobiology of that skull. Absolutely.

      December 30, 2013

    • Brent

      Now if only this kind of info was available about reiki, perhaps we could accept it! Though actually this demonstrates what I said: love is an activity inside your brain. It only affects another as it is translated into physical, measurable action - not some mysterious "soulmate" connection.

      And if you search enough, you'll find similar info on faith, or gullibility.

      December 29, 2013

    • Jean M.

      great post, BPath! I've read those studies for eons, and similar studies. Ha, I have always been fascinated with the neurobiology of love!
      Although often dismissed by academics, Dr Karen Fisher's ted talks on this topic, "the Science of Love" and her specials on the science channel,
      have always fascinated me, as she combines evolution, neurobiology, anthropology, sociology, and biology, and chemistry, and history and psychology and stirs all that together, to put forth some very thought provoking hypothesis on the possible evolutionary advantages of various aspects of human "pairbonding" and love.

      it's fascinating stuff at any rate.

      December 30, 2013

  • Bharat P.

    Reicki, I have got your number ,jury out case closed see the link below.

    December 17, 2013

    • Jean M.

      of course, now that song is stuck in my head...lol.

      December 27, 2013

  • Jesse

    It was a pleasure meeting all of you. An interesting group full of spirited discussion, which can certainly be a refreshing change of pace for a usual day. Thanks for having me!

    1 · December 17, 2013

  • Bharat P.

    http://www.librarything.com/home# I keep of books I have read on this site( up to 200 books are free listing. I am listed as bpath

    December 17, 2013

  • Bharat P.

    Vitamins Et tu!
    See the link below.

    December 17, 2013

  • Ponce G.

    It was a good discussion,I enjoy it very much, diverse group sharing thoughts.

    1 · December 17, 2013

  • Scooter D.

    As enjoyable as aromatherapy after herbal iced tea.

    1 · December 16, 2013

  • A former member
    A former member

    prefer not opinion, only in the meeting.

    1 · December 16, 2013

    • Scooter D.

      Welcome to your first thinkers meeting, hope to see again.

      December 16, 2013

  • Trude D.

    I'm swamped with work and can't make tonight's meeting or after-meeting. Hope you all enjoy some great parties (and avoid drunk drivers) during this season. See you in 2014!

    December 16, 2013

    • Jean M.

      yeah, I can't make it tonight either, my car is in the shop.
      who knows, maybe just as well, that my car broke cuz
      I am feeling
      wayyyyyyy too mellow today
      to risk seeing anyone get all hostile over nutrition,(?) or over moving their chakras around, or magnetic bracelets, or Reiki, or woo-sham meds, or magic supplements, or unproven ideas being sold as "miracles", etc.

      Some folks DO NOT USE SCIENCE and feel you are a rebel if you bring it up,
      even if you Are polite about it.

      December 16, 2013

  • dpullum

    When is "conventional medicine actually the alternate" and "alternate medicine actually the conventional one". Many of the old cures work well, example Epson Salt soaking of infection vs Antibiotics with side effects. Why complicate treatment when simplicity will do, pass the aspirin please.

    December 16, 2013

    • Jean M.

      so, for purposes of this discussion tonight, do ya supposed then, that meds and methods that do NOT have double blind studies done, will be seen as "alternative"?­

      and will there be any difference in whether or not something "works" by placebo effect, or pavlovian effect (ie, Reiki, moving chakras around, magnetic bracelets, some forms of chiropracty, acupuncture, etc) if the mind is suggestible enough to say, "those things work for me"

      ^will THAT be considered evidence that therapy "works"?

      December 16, 2013

    • Jean M.

      also, "natural" means lots of different things to different people, too. It is surprising though, how easily swayed most people are----------if they see the word "natural" on a bottle!!!!

      and no matter how many 20-letter mysterious words are listed in the ingredient list, (some of which are opposite of "natural")
      the person has been convinced-----"Ey, this stuff is natural!"
      ???? fascinating.....I am NO fan of big pharma, but, I bet most people would be stunned to learn how many of the prescriptions they get are based on plants, or on synthetically created plants, and other "natural" items.

      also, "natural" does NOT always equate to being "good for you".
      poison ivy, fire ants, ticks, chiggers, bella donna, sumac, snake venom, tomato leaves, radiation, earthquakes, lightening strikes, etc etc
      .................all are natural,
      yet, not all might be seen as "good for you" lol.

      December 16, 2013

  • Linda

    December 11, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Good luck with your new book! What is the angle of looking at religion that you are pointing at in this book? Sounds like an interesting book! I wonder if you should have hyphenated "wish-craft" because I had seen one of your mentions of this book thought it was about witchcraft! ( which I have no interest in) Lol!!! But it is a very clever play on words, but it takes a discerning eye to realize your book is not about witchcraft!

      December 11, 2013

    • Scooter D.

      Congrats! Now lets give it the "Thinkers Bump". (Eat your heart out Colbert).

      1 · December 12, 2013

  • Linda

    I am best on Weekends. Sunday would be my first choice, but Saturday is do-able. I work until 8 in Brandon on weeknights, so until I rearrange my schedule, it won't be possible. --

    December 11, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Ah weekends sure don't work for me! Weekends are social time for me, ti go out with my new pals. Linda, maybe sometime it would be possible for you some night to join us at the "afterglow"(lo­l, someone called it that once and now that nickname has stuck) when we all go out for coffee after the discussion? Lately they have been choosing Barnes and Nobles but I think they are considering trying Chili's but I'm not sure.... They seemed open to considering different places for the afterglow.

      December 11, 2013

    • Brent

      Yeah, weekends are impossible for me too most of the time, my two most-likely-to-be-workin­g days!

      December 11, 2013

  • Beth M.

    I wish this group met any other evening except Monday, which is the only evening I can't ever come. The subjects always sound so fascinating.

    December 10, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Yeah I agree weekends are not a good idea! I also agree we will never find a day that suits "everyone"....­ Which is why I thought it might be interesting to see the results of the poll about which day works best for "the BULK of the members". But if Monday works best for Brent--- then it's settled!! Lol :-)

      December 10, 2013

    • Brent

      Now seriously, is anything ever settled in this group? LMAO!

      1 · December 11, 2013

  • A. Colin F.

    what is actually medicine and what is actually alternative? How can the public tell the difference if Dr. Offit says some medicines don't work! "Debunking Vitamin C
    At least fifteen studies have now shown that vitamin C doesn’t treat the common cold. As a consequence, neither the FDA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Dietetic Association, the Center for Human Nutrition at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, nor the Department of Health and Human Services recommend supplemental vitamin C for the prevention or treatment of colds.

    October 27, 2013

    • Jean M.

      I am a "skeptic"....I­ do NOT believe everything I hear or read. Even if they use the word "studies were done..." and "studies claim..." etc.

      December 10, 2013

    • Jean M.

      That article IS an excellent description, of how even a brilliant doc, can end up touting something that is bogus, with MUCH enthusiasm.
      There is a lot of that going around. It personally annoys ME more, when the medical person is profiting from whatever cause they are on, or from whatever their claim is. The doc in this article, did not seem to especially benefit financially, from leading everyone to overdose on vit C (which does cause diarrhea, odd they did not notice that...)
      but SOME docs, get JUST AS ENTHUSIASTIC on some idea they come up with, and beyond seeking and garnering media att'n, ----> they are $ELLING something, some supplements, some vitamins, some herbs, appointments, speeches, consults, books, whatever,
      and they ARE profiting from their sham idea. (even if they DO truly believe it with all their heart...)

      ...is best to use evidence based info to form a conclusion, imo, especially in matters of caring for the only body ya get...

      1 · December 10, 2013

  • Carole B.

    Medical schools don't teach chiropractic because it is unscientific in many aspects of theory and practice. The potential for great harm to the patient exists with chiropractic treatment under certain circumstances. Also, there is always the chance that failure to make a correct diagnosis in the case of a potentially life threatening disease on the part of a chiropractic practitioner could result in serious harm or death of a patient while he or she is being treated inappropriately, when conventional medical or surgical treatment could result in amelioration of his distress or cure for his serious disease.

    I recognize that certain conditions have been successfully and dramatically resolved or greatly ameliorated by chiropractic treatment, and that many people believe they have been, or have been, helped by chiropractic. I understand their relief and gratitude.

    However, this does not negate the unscientific aspects, which could have serious consequences for some patients.

    December 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Yes, I admit we were all impressed time and time again with the number of people coming in with shoe boxes full of herbs and oils and confusion! you probably have some great anecdotal experiences with your long time friends. I do think antibiotics Are over- prescribed, but I can imagine your amazement that someone with medical background would refuse antibiotics! But I know others in the medical profession subscribe for "woo" and sham medicine and all sorts of malarkey and Bologna!!!! Even promoting it! :-) The sad part is BECAUSE they have medical background, sometimes they are taken without enough skepticism!

      December 10, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Carole, I've been nursing for over 35 years, even before "alternative" medicine, still, there were some crazy ideas out there, although, seems like most were home-made, not "sold". Stuff people believed and did, but they were just "told" that and so they believed it.

      It seems to me, more nowadays, the crazy ideas are being "$old" and someone is making money, >more than before,
      but, that is simply my own availability heuristic there. lol
      ....but, even though it seems "more" to me nowadays,
      -------------there'­s Always been scamsters and hucksters, as well as those WHO GENUINELY seem to believe in whatever crapola they are touting (usually, it's ends up as a product that they are "$elling").

      probably, back when we were cavepeople, there was one who knew this here leaf here, would fix that broken leg...bet this HAS been a feature of our species, going way way back.
      but nowadays, it seems wayyyyy more lucrative than it used to be. (imo, seems like a lot more Ca$h is involved)

      December 10, 2013

  • A former member
    A former member

    December 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Sorry talk to text really botched that reply up. Hopefully you can sort out what I was trying to say! Lol

      December 10, 2013

    • Jean M.

      here is one of my typos: //"Women of childbearing age are often and unique and benefit from vitamin C with their iron supplements."//
      was SUPPOSED to be
      "Women of childbearing age are often ANEMIC and benefit from vitamin C with their iron supplements." (not "unique" lol)

      December 10, 2013

  • A former member
    A former member

    I believe the American public has grown weary of being marketed to and gouged by the pharmaceutical and health insurance companies, leading them to explore alternatives. We've grown skeptical of our doctors, since a lot of them prescribe drugs that we may or may not need. Most of the new drugs have a long list of side effects, which makes more people interested in the natural or ayurvedic approach.

    2 · December 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Will frank I'm not exactly sure which of the many remarks above you refer to as how conspiracy theories are born or fueled.... I so agree many home remedies are almost hilarious but some are actually quite effective, for example gargling salt water when you feel the Beginning! of a sore throat -----works marvelously IF IF IF done Every two hours for 3 or 4 days at the minimum..... And its best if you gargle whole Entire glass not just one gargle. The salt actually breaks down the fat in the bacterial cell wall and kills the bacteria. But it does not kill every single one of them and the next generation is soon to rise up---- thus the need for the every 2 hours for many many days. ( which is the part most people won't do, they prefer to go get a prescription) There are some home remedies that are very very effective, but some of them are absolutely hilarious. I still shake my head when I see grandmothers lifting up childrens arms whenever they cough...

      December 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      And I don't mind a home remedy from somebody's grandmother so much ----as those who are scammers and con artist and snake oil salesman taking advantage of those who don't know any better.

      December 9, 2013

  • Carole B.

    A friend of mine was noted to have some large purplish mounds on her back by another friend. They looked angry, unnatural, and alarming to this person, and so she asked her friend what happened to her back.

    My friend quite proudly replied that she was experiencing some upper respiratory congestion, and went to her local Chinese doctor, who had applied cupping. She jubilantly stated that she was immediately relieved of her congestion after the cupping took place.

    Could it be that all the nasal secretions were somehow mysteriously drawn into the subcutaneous areas of her back by virtue of the suction exerted by the cupping, or is there something much less dramatic happening here, like strong anti-Western medicine feelings coupled with mystical Eastern leanings?

    December 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Chest PT (PT = physical therapy) is being done every hour of every day and every hospital you drive by. It does help loosen secretions in the bronchial tree to be expectorated and removed. By coughing or suctioning . But it should not leave bruises unless perhaps the practitioner did it wrong, or that particular woman is on a blood thinner or has some other reason she would bruise. It is also possible that her chest congestion was resolving on its own, or the very activity of getting off for sofa and getting to the therapist help to loosen some of her chest congestion. If she was a sedentary person, which most people are when they don't feel well. But the secretions were not in her subcutaneous tissue. That is physically impossible, unless her lung had perforated, in which case she would be on a ventilator with chest tubes and fighting for her life. The purple lumps you observed were probably just bruises.

      December 9, 2013

  • Carole B.

    Many thanks to Colin for suggesting the Offit book. I Am almost finished with it and it confirmed many of my feelings about alternative medicine.

    I was astonished to find mention in this book of several scientists of genuine proven and important accomplishments who later went on to become antiscientific and promoted fraudulent claims in spite of scientific proof to the contrary. If we could investigate what made these formerly rational and accomplished scientists become turncoats on the scientific method, maybe we could better understand what makes the average person denigrate Western medicine and embrace all forms of quackery.

    2 · November 5, 2013

    • A former member
      A former member

      perhaps the same thought process that fuels conspiracies.

      1 · December 9, 2013

    • Scooter D.

      JM:that wiki is a great detail backstory on bias, in all of its various forms. A great refresher, so many years after college.

      1 · December 8, 2013

    • Jean M.

      yeap, I do think those are factors in this month's topic,
      --->"WHY" <--- is alternative health so readily accepted.

      ......that is a lot of the "why" right there. Along with desperation in some cases, might be factor for some. Still, to Actually Believe it, kinda goes back to the factors listed in wiki link...

      December 8, 2013

  • Jean M.

    //Chiropractic often claims to be holistic and often touts the fact that the body is self-healing and usually doesn't need drugs or surgery. (Nor does it need chiropractic, one might add. Most of us will heal from most injuries or diseases without any intervention.) //


    http://skepdic.com/chiro.html

    1 · November 22, 2013

    • Brent

      That's definitely it! Or maybe it was your belief in the power of green socks.

      1 · November 25, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Brent is right, believing in green socks, (or placebos) has been proven in repeated studies, to have a power to suggestible human minds. (all our brains are suggestible, to one extent or another).
      It is possible, that your chiropractor did indeed, do something that physically did help Dave's back pain. It is not impossible, that Dave believed/expected his back to feel better, and developed either a placebo or pavlovian pain-reduction response to the manipulation of his back.

      It is not impossible, that Dave's back pain was resolving on it's own, and Dave associated that reduction in pain, with visiting the chiropractor. (which is what I suspect happened to the man whose wife's bladder problem disappeared with back manipulation).

      1 · November 25, 2013

  • Scooter D.

    My good Dr told me how a med conf presentation said a new pill was x% more effective than placebo. With much laughter, he said that during Q&A he asked "what regimen was followed for the placebo?" Giving placebos twice a day tremedously increases their effectiveness, and 3 times slightly moreso. He said his mic turned off and he was shuffled off for free liquor in a snap. I was floored by that info, then angry at big pharma, then we both had a good laugh at his prank. His implication was that good doctors know its BS and bad doctors don't care.

    1 · November 21, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Placebos DO work!! OUr minds are powerful things. People will PASSIONATELY, even angrily defend their 'woo' sham meds...

      1 · November 22, 2013

    • Jean M.

      IN that way, it's kind of like religious beliefs. There might not be ANY objective, verifiable, empirical evidence to back up the claim,
      but, there is 'personal experience' to fuel their beliefs.

      1 · November 22, 2013

  • Jean M.

    I have always personally been Very skeptical of chiropractic therapies, too. Possibly helpful for some conditions (which possibly might be placebo effect), but, wayyy overused for all kinds of stuff, and possibly dangerous. Our spines have not yet completely evolved to support us being upright 24/7, and have to treated carefully, imo.


    HOW SAFE IS ALTERNATIVE 'MEDICINE'??
    http://skepdic.com/skeptimedia/skeptimedia12.html

    November 22, 2013

    • Jean M.

      //"Neck manipulation has been linked to neurological complications such as strokes - in 1998, a 20-year-old Canadian woman died after neck manipulation caused a blood clot which led to stroke. We would strongly recommend physiotherapy exercises and osteopathy ahead of chiropractic therapy because they are at least effective and much safer. If you do decide to visit a chiropractor despite our concerns and warnings, we very strongly recommend you confirm your chiropractor won't manipulate your neck. The dangers of chiropractic therapy to children are particularly worrying because a chiropractor would be manipulating an immature spine. "//
      from link above

      November 22, 2013

  • Scooter D.

    I just heard part of Matthew Hutsonvs The 7 laws of magical thinking. He described a wonderful continuum which I will paraphrase my understanding. 1. Supernatural: Bigfoot, UFOs. 2. Animated. Lucky charms, lucky rituals - baseball player. 3. Placebo. Sugar pill, procedures. 4. Self focus. Golfer visualizing, free throw bouncing looks like lucky ritual, but more hypnosis. 5. Actual Physical effect. ... Where do traditional medicines and procedures fit in?

    1 · November 21, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Well, like this fascinating article points out,
      (link to follow in next post , cuz I can't find it without losing this post..)

      insulin WILL lower your blood sugar, whether you believe in it, or not.
      Most of the anti-hypertensives WILL lower your blood pressure (side effects be damend) whether or not you 'believe' the med works. there ARE actual chemical and biological reactions to many drugs.
      BUT
      BUT
      BUT, there are vast genres (for lack of a better word at this exact moment)
      which DO depend a lot on our 'belief' in the med, and some Very popular meds, which do not work at all, yet are hugely popular. Many of the psychotropic drugs are not effective for more than a brief period of time, (the body's own neurobiology circumvents the chemicals over time) yet, gazillions of humans are insisting, that they "have to" be on anti-depressants.
      Even pain meds, and sleeping pills, and some antiemetics, do rely upon a 'belief' factor to get maximum effect.

      November 22, 2013

    • Jean M.

      HERE is that article, that I find SOooo well written and interesting:
      http://skepdic.com/ac...­

      November 22, 2013

  • A former member
    A former member

    Since big pharma IS already selling drugs known to cure cancer, (these DO exist)
    why oh why
    would anyone think
    big pharma is "hiding" the cure for cancer?

    since they ARE already selling it?
    makes no sense.
    I want to add, I do do do do have multiple complaints about big pharma, (although, my complaints are evidence-based)
    but, I can't wrap my head around the oft-heard conspiracy theory, that big pharma is suspected of 'hiding' the cure...when they ARE selling it, right now, every day of the year.

    November 19, 2013

    • A former member
      A former member

      and they are also improving the cancer cures, they do currently have.
      and, big pharma is also now marketing immunizations for cancer. (like the shot to prevent HPV, which is THE cause of cervical cancer).

      November 19, 2013

  • Scooter Dave changed the time from 6:30 PM to 7:00 PM

    November 19, 2013

  • A. Colin F.

    Americans spend nearly $12 billion each year on vitamin supplements, hoping they will steer us away from diseases like cancer and heart attacks. But it turns out they’re just a drain on our wallets.

    Read more: Government Experts Say Supplements Don't Prevent Heart Disease, Cancer | TIME.com http://healthland.time.com/2013/11/11/want-to-stay-healthy-dont-rely-on-vitamins/#ixzz2kOVA78R0

    November 11, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Vitamins are not "bad", just unnecessary in most americans. I think the best way, for those who Do take vitamins, is only take them once or twice per week, not daily, since most mix the fat soluble with the water soluble all together in one pill.

      Vitamins do prevent vitamin deficiency disorders, which are Very well documented, in those who are Not eating proper diets.
      Vitamins are not "woo", there is actual science showing we do need vitamins, either in a pill, or, hopefully, in our food. ONe or the other.

      Still, most of us can get the vitamins we need, IF we eat right balance of foods.
      And overdosing on FAT soluble vitamins is Not the best way to treat the only body we get, as those Can build up to toxic levels.

      1 · November 12, 2013

    • Jean M.

      but Overdosing on vitamins, is a whole other thing.
      that does warrant skepticism.

      but eating food with vitamins in it, (OR obtaining the vitamins by swallowing in pill form) is necessary for heatlh.

      but, sometimes, like the recent "vitamin D deficiency" scam that just swept through America, was hilarious. Almost everyone I knew, was suddenly all diagnosed, all at once, in same year, as sudden onset of "vitamin d deficiency" and put on vit d supplements.

      oh my. what a scam.

      1 · November 12, 2013

  • A. Colin F.

    I love the Peoples Pharmacy on NPR Saturday mornings! They always surprise me with strange, but seemingly effective, alternative and natural treatments, which often have proven CLINICAL results. Show 661, Apitherapy and Acupuncture, is a very good example of non-Western medical techniques. T. J. Gan, MD, is Professor and vice-chairman of anesthesiology at the Duke University School of Medicine. He has been pioneering a combination of acupuncture with anesthesia to alleviate post-surgical pain. http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2013/11/09/661-apitherapy/

    November 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      1 · November 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      http://mssociety.ca/e...­

      I have pubmed account, which I haven't looked at yet, but, I think it is wise to be at least a little bit skeptical about bee stings and acupuncture (and chiropractic therapy) as well as all meds, alternative and "traditional".­

      2 · November 9, 2013

  • Jean M.

    http://www.skepdic.com/tialtmed.html

    ^well worth a read, especially the 'ALTERNATIVE' medicine sections. Like I said, I do think the children's book, "The Emperor's Clothes" should be req'd reading for this topic....

    1 · November 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      also, I can personally vouch, that placebos DO work. Our species IS highly suggestible. THAT right there, explains some portion of how people are led to believe this or that 'therapy' actually "helped" them.

      our minds, are powerful things.

      2 · November 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      also, there is research done, on how effective placebo can be, (not Just only my own story of the years I witnessed many nurses passing placebos)

      it's amazing, but true. If you tell a human something works, it is way more likely to 'work'. Being told by an "authority" figure, and treated as 'real', seem to be factors as well, in convincing the humans, that bee venom, or whatever, is actually "helping" them.

      1 · November 9, 2013

  • A. Colin F.

    Offit (see link below) says "THE SOURCE OF A CHEMICAL DOESN’T MATTER; ONLY THE CHEMICAL MATTERS. And whether it is synthesized by a pharmaceutical company or found in nature, the chemical is the same. And it should be regulated in the same way." But is this true, because I know of measured data that shows it is not!

    October 27, 2013

    • A. Colin F.

      I know of synthesized chemicals that are not as effective as the organic ones.

      November 9, 2013

    • Jean M.

      such as? and how do you "know"? Your own personal experience? Or double-blind academic clinical trials, or what?

      November 9, 2013

  • A. Colin F.

    Sceptics might like this site: http://www.quackwatch.org/
    or my The Body is the Temple of the Soul health page

    October 27, 2013

    • A. Colin F.

      on Facebook

      October 27, 2013

    • Jean M.

      some great stuff there! I like "why people are vulnerable" link on that page. Made sense to me.

      1 · November 5, 2013

    • Jean M.

      I do think spiritualism IS an easy sell, especially to those who are vulnerable and need someone else to help them find meaning. Many humans easily accept another person's ideas without even a shred of skepticism.

      I'm not one of those people usually. Still, I feel my life has great meaning, and imo, it's up to ME to find my own meaning for my existence. "Things have meaning, if we choose to assign a meaning" ~ My pal Lydia.

      Whether or not science can aide us in finding more meaningful lives, is debatable. My being able to Skype with my far-away daughter, is Very important to ME. My own amateur exploration of various fields of science, adds Much joy and thrill to my brain.
      Because of science, I can travel, and participate in many things that are NOT in my immediate area.

      it's debatable whether or not science offers avenues for us to enhance our lives in meaningful ways.

      1 · November 5, 2013

    • Jean M.

      I challenge their idea,
      //"Where modern medicine is spiritless and technological, "//

      If you've ever had a loved one being treated for cancer, or many of the other frightening diseases,
      maybe you've had a chance to observe first-hand, how holistic our traditional medicine is becoming. Multiple therapies are called in, to assist the patient AND family with emotional, "spiritual", developmental recoveries, too.


      I do generally agree, that a pill, or a MRI scanner, IS indeed, "spiritless and technological"
      but, I insist, the vast bulk of the humans bringing your that pill,
      or explaining what the MRI will be like for you,
      are often sources of comfort and re-assurance and compassion.
      Not all, but most of 'em.

      1 · November 5, 2013

  • Trude D.

    Should be an interesting discussion! I don't know why rational people do any specific irrational thing, but I do know that I don't know that. Many educated people, though, when confronted by the uncertainties of many western medical treatments, especially those for severe illness or chronic conditions, seem to figure that their doctor's inability to offer a guaranteed cure--when they're desperate to have on--opens the door for them to try whatever else some con artist (or sincere true believer) assures them is "sure to work."

    1 · September 22, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Placebos do work. It's the most fascinating thing. When I was young nurse, placebos were both legal, and not uncommon. We passed them for sleep, and sometimes, for pain.
      They worked. It seemed to matter the words I said when I passed the placebo, too. To ensure the placebo truly did make the person fall asleep, i'd tell them some people get dizzy from this pill, so feel free to call me to walk to them to the bathroom if they wake up during the night.
      It was surprising how many of them did report they did indeed feel dizzy from the pill.

      2 · November 2, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Lol,
      I think prior to this topic, Everyone should be assigned to read the children's book, "The Emperor's Clothes".

      1 · November 2, 2013

  • Carole B.

    I was in the medical profession for 45 years. Over the past 10 years I have noticed a phenomenon of otherwise educated, rational and intelligent people totally rejecting and abhorring Western medicine and embracing unproven,esoteric and dangerous alternative health beliefs and practices, which have at times deterred them from a timely diagnosis and treatment of potentially serious conditions.

    I have not been able to find scientific studies of educated people who espouse "anti-medicine" and "anti=scientific" health systems, but it appears to me that many of them are prone to personality disorders and/or certain psychosocial profiles.

    I was bemused recently when an acquaintance, who fits the above profile, and who knows I am undergoing treatment for a significant medical problem through traditional medicine, quite sincerely offered the advice of drinking organic coffee and eating broccoli, and all would be well!!

    2 · September 21, 2013

    • A. Colin F.

      very interested in your opinion about this

      October 13, 2013

    • Jean M.

      Re: //unable to find scientific studies of educated people who espouse "anti-medicine"­//
      I am not sure if any academic groups have truly "studied" the anti-vaccine hysteria that just occurred in the US, but, I know, many of them are educated humans who should know better,
      yet, they too, got pulled along in that last wave of "vaccines cause autism, etc"
      and these parents did not all seem to represent the mentally ill.
      Possibly, some mentally ill parents were refusing vaccinating their kids, but, overall, that wave of parents did not seem to be mentally ill.

      so, my point is,
      there are examples out there,
      Of educated people
      who are not mentally ill
      who have joined in an "anti-medicine"­ wave.

      however, I do feel 'traditional' medicine should be researched prior to just accepting Every script we are given. I think we all have to be our own health care advocates.

      1 · November 2, 2013

  • A. Colin F.

    is there a difference between natural and alternative medicine?

    October 13, 2013

    • A. Colin F.

      a choice limited to one of two or more possibilities, as of things, propositions, or courses of action, the selection of which precludes any other possibility: You have the alternative of riding or walking.
      2.
      one of the things, propositions, or courses of action that can be chosen: The alternative to riding is walking.
      3.
      a possible or remaining course or choice: There was no alternative but to walk.

      October 23, 2013

    • Brent

      A couple comments:

      1. Isn't any treatment that actually works "medicine" an the alternative, by definition, things that don't work?

      2. Are synthetic duplicates, retaining all of the properties of naturally-existing substances, still qualified as "natural?"

      3. The word "natural" is often erroneously used as a substitute for "better." People fail to recognize that hemlock, rattlesnake poison, radioactive substances, and many other harmful things are 100% natural. I propose that "natural" be thrown out as a factor in the discussion; treatments should be evaluated on the basis of efficacy, not marketing. (I realize this is not often the case.)

      2 · October 23, 2013

  • A. Colin F.

    Here is a FREE lunch at my Sailing Meetup for people who would like to hear what a Alternative Medicine practioner has to say! http://www.meetup.com/Tampa-Bay-Sailing/events/146859642/

    Dr. Barile is an authority in Alternative Natural Drug- Free Healing. He has a Ph.D. in Nutrition and is both a Doctor of Naturopathy and Chiropractic, with over 44 years of hands-on experience helping and teaching people how to get well naturally without drugs.
    He is the Director of the Natural Wellness Center in North Redington Beach, Florida, hosting weekly seminars on issues concerning public health, alternative healing principles and the hazards of prescription drugs.

    October 22, 2013

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