Re: [tampa-bay-thinkers] demonstration of EFT?

From: Jean M.
Sent on: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:27 AM

Jason,
We should probably move this over to a thread in the discussion area.
Do you consider not believing in something, or challenging the validity of ab idea==== to be same thing as "vilifying"  it?  Really?
This IS a group that DOES discuss,debate, and sometimes debunk topics. NOT everyone actually Enjoys having what They believe challenged or questioned or====dawg forbid!! Disagreed with??!!

As in ===// If you don't agree with My way of looking at the world , that equates to " vilifying" it. "//

We actually are sort of a discussion and debate group. It's what we do. If You dislike having what you say questioned or even disagreed with!!!?? (Gasp) then you might not particularly "enjoy" debating.
If if if you are replying to my note below  (?) I'm surprised you did not seem to notice I did say there IS a (limited) use for placebo based therapies for some people.

But I just strongly dislike pretending it is something other than what it is== the placebo effect. No one is having their "energy" moved around.  We do NOT have to dismiss science and physics and make up crap
to admire the wonder of the placebo effect.

  Why not celebrate and explore the (limited) power of placebo itself( without the need to rename it, re·categorize it, or make up stuff?)

I agree with your disappointment that so many people do try to assign metaphysical properties  to things they do not understand.  I disagree with your characterization of those who realize it IS the placebo effect, as  "less educated".(?).
//"I will not argue"//   Me, i'll question anything and everything especially if the idea is irrational or  breaking the laws of nature.
I'm very happy to an attack an idea but never the Person.
You make see this kind of challenging as "arguing"....  What I will happily challenge and take on and explore  IN A "DEBATE" GROUP is different than what I do at the Thanksgiving table.

But~~~Like I said, folks who  really dislike it to the point that it feels like they're being "vilified"
may not much care for debate, but they're welcome to come find out as long as interest and what the gruop is about.  Most of us strive to be polite people but I can't promise that you won't be challenged or disagreed with.
And there are ideas I actually will strongly disagree with, which may qualify as " villify" in your book.
Is that a bad thing to think differently than you do, or to require evidence to accept a Very far fetched idea?  ( or to realize that there already IS evidence that this EFT is just the placebo effect)

//" fantastical claims require fantastic evidence."//
We should probably move this over to a thread in the discussion area!!!!!!  Feel free to start a thread in the member discussion area to continue explaining your feelings about people who call the placebo effect·· "the placebo effect"'.

On Feb 25,[masked]:01 AM, "Tamera Fontenot" <[address removed]> wrote:
Wow, what an interesting response from folks. I consider myself very much a critical thinker, and a scientist. It is the nature of my work  that many who do operate from a more metaphysical  ("woo-hoo") bent find their way to me (as a hypnotherapist)-the reasons have everything to do with the human tendency (and history) to mystify (or vilify) things that they do not yet have an explanation for. I think we get closer to understanding the true nature of the human neurology everyday; it is both amazingly creative AND very predictable. As a rational thinker, I will not "throw the baby out with the bathwater"-if some knowledge is useful, I want to understand WHY and how useful is it?

I too find it discouraging, and a real dis-service to people who are in pain, that so many people tie any religious/metaphysical explanations to things like EFT. This is no more appropriate than to do so with EMDR ( an evidence based therapy for trauma) or any other approach. It is a technique that people can use, on their own, to di-fuse strong emotional reactivity that they have to certain stimuli. When the content is defused from the emotion, it is moved from the emotional centers of the brain (which often triggers the  physiological stress response) to the pre-frontal cortex, allowing a more rational response. There are many ways to do this, EFT is but one, and what makes it cool is its simplicity, even young children can use it. Its simplicity though, is a part of the reason EFT remains in the domain of less critical thinkers, people willing to keep it in the "woo-hoo" arena because they lack the education/awareness of the neurology that is at work.

Now, I did not develop this process, do not consider myself an expert at it (again-it is JUST one therapeutic tool in my arsenal), have no monetary incentives, really have no reason to convince anyone of anything here. I would be open to sharing my experiences and thoughts but I really will not argue.








 


On 25 February[masked]:06, Jean Marie <[address removed]> wrote:

We JUST discussed "the placebo effect" last month, or maybe it was the month before? I am very open to discussing the placebo effect==== but let's call the topic :  "the placebo effect."
:-)
Then I am happy to discuss the topic " the placebo effect"
But I dislike the fakery that is  involved pretending we are discussing how someone is"moving your chakras around" :-)
or Whatevvvvver is current curtain for the emperor's clothes.....for seeing (or feeling) what we are told.

Call it what it is and we'll be happy to talk about it. Or at least I will.
Placebos do work on many people for "some" problems (as does distraction :-) :-) :-)
)
but it very much depends How the placebos are presented....to help with  "subjectively reported" problems.(pain, nausea, etc)

I know cuz I have passed placebos manymany  times.  They used to be legal.  Now ya, have, to call or something else (like lavender oil)

I have been able to induce dizziness in people by telling them to this particular med (placebo) is so powerful that you might feel a small wave of dizziness. Shocking how many did report that they were dizzy!!!!!

Placebos can help some people with  Subjectively Reported help..... Placebos do not shrink tumors or increase blood counts.  But attitude Is about 80% of how ya feel, imo.  There is a difference between  actual "healing"
And what a person is "feeling".
That's two different things.
I am open to discuss the placebo effect~~~~ BUT let's call it what it is okay??
~jean

On Feb 24,[masked]:30 PM, "Jason Meinig" <[address removed]> wrote:
>
> So why wouldn't you find the placebo effect infinitely interesting? A scientifically verified phenomenon that Science hasn't a clue to the actual mechanics of. You/They phoo-phoo it but doesn't it really serve to prove that the brain can many times heal us without actual medicine, and merely just the idea of it? Its not merely that a placebo works "because you think it does", it has to do with belief, trust, people's trust in authority figures (like doctors), and an apparently twisted lack of trust in their own abilities in that it takes the individual being deceived in order to empower them to heal themselves - secretly, behind their own backs, so to speak. I find it so odd that people don't find the placebo effect a giant elephant in the room, flying in the face of the skeptical POV, even as those same skeptics love to throw it into their own arguments. Skeptics wave it off as just something the brain does, ho-hum - and yet thats EXACTLY how powerful the brain is - it can heal you through belief alone! No real medicine required.
>
> - Jason
>
> ________________________________
> From: [address removed]
> To: [address removed]
>
> Subject: Re: [tampa-bay-thinkers] demonstration of EFT?
> Date: Mon, 24 Feb[masked]:00:55 -0500
>
> So when enough people are conned into believing it, the world will again be flat? Massages work - as massages. Chiropractic does some things to some people, but also kills and paralyzes people, and doesn't cure anything. Voodoo and placebos work the same way: because you think it does. Much better on things that can't be measured. No broken bones have been magically healed by any of these woo techniques.
>
> On 2/24/[masked]:33 AM, Florence wrote:
>>
>> It becomes a scam for anything to claim it can cure every disease. Unfortunately, TFT shoots itself in the foot by these outlandish claims, yet many therapists incorporate this successfully in lasting treatment for their patients. Don't throw away the baby with the bath water.
>> Dogs don't write blogs or discuss treatment modalities with their peers, yet T-Touch techniques work for them, as do massage, chiropractic and massage, all of which not that long ago were touted as voudoo and placebo.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad mini
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2014, at 11:44 PM, Brent <[address removed]> wrote:
>>
>>> Why would we want to waste time on a scam?
>>>
>>> http://seanreagan.com/debunking-the-eft-therapy-scam/
>>> http://www.skepdic.com/eft.html
>>> http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2009/03/10/eft-a-whole-new-woo/
>>> http://www.experienceproject.com/question-answer/Can-EFT-Successfully-Treat-MS-Or-Is-It-Mumbo-Jumbo/90981
>>> http://www.csicop.org/si/show/can_we_really_tap_our_problems_away_a_critical_analysis_of_thought_field_th/
>>> http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/01/skeptics-of-energy-therapies.html
>>>
>>> I've got better things to do with my time.
>>>
>>> On 2/23/2014 5:58 PM, A. Colin Flood wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Roy says he will demonstrate, if you want to contacthim for a Meetup event...
>>>>
>>>> A. Colin Flood
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tampatechwriter.com/
>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=17855216&trk=tab_pro
>>>> Skype: Acolin_F
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> Subject: Re: [tampa-bay-thinkers] demonstration of EFT?
>>>> From: [address removed]
>>>> To: [address removed]
>>>> Date: Sun, 23 Feb[masked]:16:50 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Me too. Sounds interesting.
>>>> ...dave
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 23,[masked]:06 PM, "A. Colin Flood" <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to see that - lets schedule it!
>>>>>
>>>>> Emotional Freedom Techniques (EFTs) are a form of counseling intervention that draws on various theories of alternative medicine including acupuncture, neuro-linguistic programming,energy medicine, and Thought Field Therapy. It is best known through Gary Craig's EFT Handbook, published in the late 1990s, and related books and workshops by a variety of teachers. During a typical EFT session, the person will focus on a specific issue while tapping on "end points of the body's energy meridians". Advocates claim that the technique may be used to treat a wide variety of physical and psychological disorders, and as a simple form of self-administered therapy.[1]
>>>>>
>>>>> The available evidence from studies done on EFT have shown that while there may be small effects from use of this technique, they are likely due to well recognized conventional psychological techniques often used with the tapping, rather than the purported "energy" mechanisms. EFT is generally characterized as pseudoscience and has not garnered significant support in clinical psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A. Colin Flood
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.tampatechwriter.com/
>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=17855216&trk=tab_pro
>>>>> Skype: Acolin_F
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> Subject: Re: [tampa-bay-thinkers] I can not be there early to picnic!
>>>>> From: [address removed]
>>>>> To: [address removed]
>>>>> Date: Sun, 23 Feb[masked]:32:07 -0500
>>>>>
>>>>> Some people are not familiar with EFT: I am quite familiar with it and would like to make a statement for the group. It appears that the reason eft is called (emotional freedom technique) is that while it can work on other issues than emotional, when an issue cannot find solution that makes it an emotional issue even if it was a sore shoulder or any other problem. EFT works on any problem. I have never seen it fail and am always amazed at how well it works on any problem.
>>>>>       I believe that it was Einstein who said that "things should be as simple as possible"
>>>>> "but not not simpler" The people who wouldn't give it a chance to work felt that it was too simple.  Actually the more simple the technique,the faster it can work. I have seen and done many 2 minute cures. No credit to me, People heal themselves when they allow it to happen. When this gets setup - up as a topic I will be happy to demonstrate it. The people who participate in the demo will be happy that they were there for a cure  and for those who like myself like to be "helping people" will be happy to learn a quick technique for helping. 
>>>>> E me or call me.
>>>>> Roy poplin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Karen Assel <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Saturday - today
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 2:06 AM, Linda <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this on saturday or sunday?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 6:14 PM, A. Colin Flood <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can not be there early! I will have to be late. Sorry business before pleasure. Can anybody get there early to claim a pavillion and maybe start the coals?
>>>>>>>> Does anybody have a flag? That would help mark the pavillion.
>>>>>>>> I think we should check out the first four pavillion first since they are centrally located. If they are taken, then we will check out 7 & 8 pavillions next.
>>>>>>>> For more details, see the full listing:
>>>>>>>> http://www.meetup.com/tampa-bay-thinkers/events/162038132/
>>>>>>>> When: Saturday, February 22,[masked]:30 PM
>>>>>>>> Where: Lettuce Lake Regional Park
>>>>>>>> 6920 East Fletcher Avenue
>>>>>>>> Tampa, FL 33637
>>>>>>>> RSVP limit: 20 "Yes" RSVPs
>>>>>>>> This Meetup repeats on the 1st Sunday of every 12 months until February 1, 2015.
>>>>>>>> If the changes affect your plans to attend, please take a moment to update your RSVP. (You can RSVP "No" or "Yes".)
>>>>>>>> You can always get in touch with me through my group profile on Meetup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> Linda Falkner LMHC
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>>>>>>> (813)[masked]
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