Re: [lpsf] WikiLeaks trial: Bradley Manning shows no reaction to prison sentence

From: Eric D.
Sent on: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 2:55 PM
Re "Love & Liberty" I have been leading a life of loving it and liberty for the past three months or so. I have been in the Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico desert on Navajo reservations or BLM land most of that time. Not many rules and regulations out here, but not much in the way of internet, either. I'll be back at meetings when I get back. Disappointingly, "Libertarian" mayor John Inks did not lift a finger to try to stop the ban on living out of your own car, or wherever and however you want, and did not meet with any of us to discuss the ban in his own city of Mountainview, next door. So much for electing "Libertarians". The reason I left the Libertarian Party when I was a teenager, after joining, was this kind of abuse of the word by people in the party. That's why I whined about linking with any anti-abortion or religious groups at the first meeting I attended.  

From: Starchild <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, August 21,[masked]:28 PM
Subject: Re: [lpsf] WikiLeaks trial: Bradley Manning shows no reaction to prison sentence

    I don't think there's a single, magic-bullet answer to that question. I think we just have to keep up the struggle for freedom, by whatever ethical means seem most effective at any given point in time. Seek to find ways to advance the cause that seem effective to you, and that you find enjoyable or rewarding, so that your efforts are sustainable.

Love & Liberty,
                                ((( starchild )))


On Aug 21, 2013, at 2:22 PM, Eric OoPs Diesel wrote:

> Re the quote you sent, "something is seriously wrong with our justice system", the question is what to do about it?
>
> From: Starchild <[address removed]>
> To: [address removed]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21,[masked]:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpsf] WikiLeaks trial: Bradley Manning shows no reaction to prison sentence
>
>    It is a sad and shameful sentence. This quote from the Baltimore Sun article ( http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-bradley-manning-sentence-20130821,0,3733379.story ) sums it up well:
>
> > "When a soldier who shared information with the press and public is punished far more harshly than others who tortured prisoners and killed civilians, something is seriously wrong with our justice system," said Ben Wizner, director of the American Civil Liberty Union's Speech, Privacy and Technology Project.
>
>    Bradley Manning remains a hero and martyr to the cause of justice, and his continued imprisonment will be a continuing stain on the honor and reputation of the U.S. government (what little it has).
>
> Love & Liberty,
>                                ((( starchild )))
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2013, at 11:30 AM, Eric OoPs Diesel wrote:
>
> > http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-wikileaks-bradley-manning-prison-sentence-20130821,0,5559721.story
> >
> > 
> > From: John Bechtol <[address removed]>
> > To: Tim Fyffe <[address removed]>; "[address removed]" <[address removed]>; "[address removed]" <[address removed]>
> > Cc: "[address removed]" <[address removed]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30,[masked]:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sad, Unjust, but expected.
> >
> > Tim! 
> > Great to hear from you.  Are you still with us?
> > John
> >[masked]
> >
> > From: Tim Fyffe <[address removed]>
> > To: "[address removed]" <[address removed]>; "[address removed]" <[address removed]>; "[address removed]" <[address removed]>
> > Cc: "[address removed]" <[address removed]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30,[masked]:12 PM
> > Subject: Fw: Sad, Unjust, but expected.
> >
> > Well it was about what we suspected. Although I thought it was sad they came down with maximum on as many counts as they could. I think if we do our job he will be out in less then 10 years. He is a brave soldier willing to pay a price for doing what he believes is right, I hope we have his back. 
> > 
> > As always I will keep working as I can for a better more open more free America. Bradley Manning, Snowden are American Heroes and a transparent America with privacy and civil rights depends on a new breed of Heroes. 
> >
> > ----- Forwarded Message -----
> > From: Tim Fyffe <[address removed]>
> > To: The Mikester <[address removed]>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 13,[masked]:29 PM
> > Subject: Re:
> >
> > We are on the same page.
> > 
> > here was a response I never sent back to Eric I think you estimate correctly.
> > 
> > America whistle blowing and speech laws are largely based on intent.
> > 
> > Bradely Manning did contact several traditional media sources that could of worked more closely with the government to release these more carefully, they initially refused although latter the media ran almost all the documents.
> > Wiki leaks also took precautions and tried not to release documents that might harm legitimate US security, how stringent they were is being contested but some much this was not under Bradley Manning's control. Manning perceived himself as not able to be successful whistle blow within his own chain of command. Much of this was due to lifestyle discrimination. Frankly this appears to be compellingly true.
> > On the most severe charges:
> > 1>) Did he know or believe he was materially aiding the enemy. I think he did not think so. I think he can defend this positions based on intent.
> > 2). Was real damage caused by the act. He can make a defense that he was correct in thinking this would not aide the enemy and no real damage was done. No history of real damage has been revealed. For me at least, it is clear these disclosures have materially helped America.
> > 
> > These are the most severe laws that include capital offenses,
> > The remaining laws are less severe like, miss use of classified documents. It will be up to the court to show mercy on penalties here, I think he had such a compelling mission that if backed by public opinion, (which is where we come in) the penalties will be modest, or if we create a strong consensus will probably be time served.
> > The US may choose "to save face" and justify his mistreatment. If we are wildly successful Manning could sue in civil court latter. I accept the premise that this mission was so critical as a whistle blower and he was under such severe duress that all charges clearly should be dropped. I am probably preaching to the quire here.
> > I think the most likely outcome is he will spend a several more years in prison. Honestly that is one of the things to admire, he was aware there was a potential price for civil disobedience and was willing to pay it.
> > In many other countries including even England, that have a less strong Free Speech tradition there would be little hope. This is why we fight for America, it has a history of comparatively good principles on free speech, and a tradition of citizens rising up to protect them when the public is awoken from it's deep sleep.
> >
> > From: The Mikester <[address removed]>
> > To: Tim Fyffe <[address removed]>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 13,[masked]:16 PM
> > Subject: Re:
> >
> > You can even record it on a cell phone camera, I mean it's very grassroots to do it however you can get it done. Also I think we might only have two motorcycle riders make the whole trip, you don't really need your own bikers. I'll call you tomorrow or Saturday, I don't want you to feel pressured into something you're not comfortable with but we need to start somewhere and the event can be in a lot better position next year if we at least present something resembling success this year. We got a very late start planning so it's more important at this point to follow through than it is to take low attendance as a sign of failure. I like to hope for the best but it's likely that he may get convicted and need sustained public pressure to build in time for him to be pardoned when Obama leaves office in 2016, which is a traditional time for pardons to be announced. So it is better that we lay a foundation, than give up without trying. And remember we have the potential for donations if it can be seen actually materializing. It's a leap of faith .... Definitely don't pawn your belongings, the invisible hand will provide.
> >
> > --
> > The Mikester
> > Phoenix, AZ
> >
> > "The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any."
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Tim Fyffe <[address removed]> wrote:
> > http://www.occuworld.org/news/236463
> > 
> > Not sure if you have your DC event tied down but this link might be a good resource. Baltimore is a very short ride to DC.
> > 
> > I will meet after noon tomorrow with my daughter to decide if we can put together an event and announce it on Face Book, honestly the motorcycle and video cameras are the challenge but she is pretty and young so maybe a few smiles at coffee shops will rope in some resources. 
> > 
> > In the corporate world when I had a staff I often put on large events quickly. The difference sadly is money. It is always amazing how many folks you could get on short notice with a free lunch, people make millions a year, yet they cannot refuse a free lunch :)
> > 
> > I still have one object I can try to pawn tomorrow. I do believe in this if you think Cleveland is important I will keep doing what I can for a local event. I do think I am a bit PTSD on this it keeps reminding me of when I was a whistle Blower with Kaiser and not a single person in Cleveland would stand up with me. Just a couple in California that were standing up for their own situation and had little to do with me.
> > 
> > If you choose to call tomorrow I will probably be in only till 11:30AM EST, it is not critical you call so do as you wish. I will also be around Saturday.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> > This message was sent by Eric "OoPs" Diesel ([address removed]) from The San Francisco Libertarian Party Meetup Group.
> > To learn more about Eric "OoPs" Diesel, visit his/her member profile
> > Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages
> >
> > Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed] 
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>
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> This message was sent by Starchild ([address removed]) from The San Francisco Libertarian Party Meetup Group.
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> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> This message was sent by Eric "OoPs" Diesel ([address removed]) from The San Francisco Libertarian Party Meetup Group.
> To learn more about Eric "OoPs" Diesel, visit his/her member profile
> Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages
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> Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed] 




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This message was sent by Starchild ([address removed]) from The San Francisco Libertarian Party Meetup Group.
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