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DFW Theology & Apologetics Meetup Message Board › What is the basis of faith?

What is the basis of faith?

A former member
Post #: 31

Regarding your last paragraph (if I understand your point correctly), the account of Jesus' baptism does not indicate that he became the Son of God at that moment. Nor does it indicate that Jesus was "born again" upon his baptism. Jesus had no need to be "born again" or "regenerated" since he was not born with a sin nature as everyone after Adam was. Jesus' baptism and the Holy Spirit descending upon him was the inaugural event for his public ministry. It did not change his essential nature or relationship to God the Father.

Again, let me know if I've missed your point in the last paragraph.




In a sense, he became the son of God at that moment, yes, it's possible. I understand that it conflicts with standard pulpit rationalization, but it doesn't actually change whether or not he is the anointed one. Neither does it alter the result.

You're one that believes that babies are born already to have sinned? I don't believe the same. In my view, the sin which we're all subject to from birth is the sin that exists in those who are here.
It's just as possible that God could align the miracle of the conception (and ideal selection of parents capable of instilling the exact necessary environment) in such a way that it allowed him to reach adulthood in the proper state of being. It's also just as possible that God was constantly with him, guiding him. Then, at the moment of baptism, the spirit of God went from a not just a guiding force, but also an empowering force -- "I do not these things on my own, but through God who strengthens me".

Please forgive my frustration earlier. These are difficult topics to have disagreements over.



PS - I think I need an intermission at least, if we're going to keep this up :)

Todd H.
Group Organizer
Bedford, TX
Post #: 47
Hey Matthew,

Regarding the idea that all people are born into the world with a sin nature, I base this conclusion largely on Romans 5, which is summed up in verses 18 and 19:

"Therefore, as one trespass (Adam's disobedience in the Garden) led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness (Jesus' obedience to death on the Cross) leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."

I think Paul establishes pretty clearly that mankind is born in sin and in need of redemption. This passage is not the only one that leads to this conclusion but it's one of the best.

Paul also says in Romans 5 that Adam was a "type" of Jesus Christ in that both men were progenitors of a whole race of people and acted (in obedience or disobedience) on behalf of their respective race of people. Adam was the progenitor of those born into the human race; Jesus was/is the progenitor of those born into a spiritual race (hence, the idea of "born again" or "born from above" or "regenerated").

Do you have another interpretation of what Paul writes in Romans 5 or do you just think he was wrong about all men becoming sinners as a result of our father Adam?

A former member
Post #: 32
Exit stage left.. Can't say I blame ya...
Todd H.
Group Organizer
Bedford, TX
Post #: 49
Hey Matthew,

Is the intermission over yet?! LOL.

I'm looking forward to resuming the debate (on whatever subject you'd like).

Talk to you soon.

user 6289665
Arlington, TX
Post #: 55
This is turning into a very good discussion. I would like to interject some thoughts into the thread but I would hate to disturb the flow. Matt any chance you can come out to IHOP later tonight? You seem to have some deep knowledge of Monotheism of which has been around for thousands of years, only to be recently tainted by the Council of Nicaea in

It would be better in person at I-Hop, with a video camera there.

Of course the video would be too long and miserable to edit. I can't make it tonight, but maybe next week.
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