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A former member
Post #: 11
Denny's at 9:00 as per usual.

We can discuss Howard's question (I can only be a listener, not a contributor, since I am not one that espouses inerrancy) and then I'd like the Calvinists to discuss this:

Would it be your contention that a person who professes to be a Christian but struggles constantly with it in fact be not "chosen" and as such not saved? Are they just fooling themselves? If this question is not clear feel free to email me ahead of time or ask me Thursday night.
A former member
Post #: 20
Why don't you discuss this: Why should a person struggle with the issue? There is nothing you can do. You cannot be saved if you were not elected. You cannot be lost if you were not elected. IF I were a Calvinist and IF I believed in god, I would not give it another thought as to whether I should be a Christian, as to whether I was elected or saved or what I should do. I would just get up in the morning and do exactly what I want to do. I would trust god to take care of all the rest. If he wants me to do something, I would trust he can make me do it. If he wants me to believe something, I can trust he will make me believe it. If he wants me to feel something, I can trust he will make me feel it. Whatever I do, think and feel is in accordance with his will and controlled by him. I cannot understand the worry.

If I find myself desiring to go to Vegas this weekend and play poker, I can be assured this is EXACTLY what god wants me to do. Everything that happens is in accordance with his will and his desires. If not, he lacks power. Why worry?

If you or me or Todd are elected, there is nothing we can do about it. The odds that I am one of the elect are the same as if Todd is one of the elect. (And the odds against it are about the same). God will save about 1% of humankind (give or take 1%) and there is absolutely nothing you can do about whether you are one of the saved. There is also absolutely nothing you can do about your thoughts, beliefs or desires. God will handle it.

Isn't that a correct understanding of Calvin?
A former member
Post #: 10
No mass emails have gone out about tonight so others may not know? Or will they? It's 4 PM now. Getting late smile
A former member
Post #: 14
Sorry, Adam, Todd only asked me to text everyone - I'm glad you made it despite not getting your email. Next time Todd leaves town, if he assigns the notification duties to me, I'll remember to ask him about sending out an email. I don't recall ever getting one other than the automatic one Meetup sends out so I didn't think to ask him about it. smile
A former member
Post #: 15
Thanks for your suggestion on future discussions, Howard. Of course, I was specifically looking for the Calvinist's view. I was satisfied with how the discussion went, though, and although I may not have gotten a general answer, I did get an answer for MY doubts. Thanks for your input! smile

Edited to add: After rereading it sounds as if my answer to you is dismissive - I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I was looking for the answser from a Calvinist, not from an atheist who hopes he is speaking for a Calvinist. And now I think I'm sounding snarky and I don't mean to be - okay, I'll just say "thank you" for your answer and leave it at that before I dig myself deeper! laughing

Probably best to begin another discussion about it if anyone's interested in pursuing this thought further.
A former member
Post #: 23
Maybe I missed your question. I re-read it. You were asking whether if a person "struggles" with being a Christian, would this be a sign they were not elect? Let's assume this is true. I don't know much about Calvinism, so I just have to make an assumption.

The concern seems to be about "knowing" whether you are among the elect. I guess I am wondering whether this is something Calvinist think you can know. Todd seemed to have some insight into knowing whether certain others were or were not.

I guess I just don't see why it would be important for us to know. This life on earth is such an insignificant short time and we will know very soon anyway, I can't imagine why one would want to know.

But let's assume it is in God's plan that if a person is elect, he/she will know this fact. If that is the correct view of reality, then this person will know. If it is God's will that every "elect" person feel some certainty that she is elect, this will happen. If it is NOT in God's will that every elect person will "know" then it will not happen.

I guess your question would be whether from a Calvinist perspective everyone is supposed to "know" or is it that we could be "elect" and not realize it or conversely believe we were "elect" and be mistaken.

I keep getting back to why worry about it. It seems simple. If God's wants us to know, we will. If I understand Calvinism, there is nothing we can do about any of it. I still wonder why were would give it a thought.

Let me assume when you mentioned "struggling" you were talking of yourself. Let me assume you "struggle." in some way. Well, God obviously wants you to struggle, or you would not struggle. You are living according to the will of god in struggling. Why worry? You still cannot affect whether or not you are among the elect. Why even give it a thought?

My point is that I might be among the elect, but if I am, I am. In the meantime, I am not going to "struggle."
A former member
Post #: 17
You know what, Howard, you are exactly right. Thanks for persevering. Sometimes I need knocking in the head.
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