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DFW Theology & Apologetics Meetup Message Board › John 17:9 does not enforce Calvinist views

John 17:9 does not enforce Calvinist views

Adam
user 6289665
Arlington, TX
Post #: 1
Many people know that I do not disagree with Predestination. But I look at it in a different way than other "Calvinists" do. Predestination is real, or it would not be in the word of GOD. I believe in it.

Some Calvinists always show me John 17:9 as proof of Election of Christians. Then they tell me not to nuggetize Scripture and read it in context.

So I get confused as to why they turn around and do the same thing by nuggestizing the 1 scripture John 17:9, without going on to explain what the rest means.

CHRIST is not talking about an elect force of special Christians predestined for Salvation . . he's talking about his disciples of that time that were elect to do a job for GOD as I'll highlight below in blue (hope nobody is color blind to the color blue).

He talks about his protection of them, and losing one of them. Who do you think he's talking about? He's not talking about the elite group of special Christians elect out of The United States.

He's referring to his disciples when he says he prays for those he was sent (the disciples) and not the world.

Hermeneutics? I'm always told that word and how I need to read context. Well the context here is CHRIST speaking about his Disciples.

The disciples were elect. They were predestined. They were elect and predestined to go out and spread GOD's word among nations who would have the chance to receive or reject the word.

At that particular time CHRIST's prayer was not for the world as he stated. It was for his disciples because he knew they would be facing troubles.


John 17:9-12
I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me (The disciples), for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer (Christ is talking about his crucifixion there), but they are still in the world (Christ is referring to his disciples after his crucifixion) , and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name?the name you gave me?so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them (Still talking about the same thing here and the same disciples), I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one (The one of the same disciples he's been talking about , which was JUDAS) doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
A former member
Post #: 32
It's good to see you, Adam. I've been meaning to send you an email asking where you've been and wishing you well, but you know how that goes...best intentions and all that. I hope you know you're missed at Denny's and I hope you come back soon.

Okay, I'll actually read your post now and if I have comments I'll come back!
A former member
Post #: 33
I agree with you absolutely. Verse 12 proves he's speaking only of his twelve disciples.

I've also seen John 17:1-2 cited and it does appear to my uneducated brain that is supports limited atonement. But this one just doesn't seem to, to me.

I would like a Calvinist who believes those verses support their position to give us their views.
saderlius
user 6344760
Richardson, TX
Post #: 1
I am not a calvinist, but i can sympathize with the position:
you connect John 17:9 to modern believers by John 17:20.

Regardless, the fallacy of calvinism is the assumption that "the ones the Father has given me" don't have a choice. If human spirits are emanations of God's Spirit, then our personal choice to accept His salvation would be synonymous with His choice.
peace and grace,
sad
A former member
Post #: 34
I"m not sure what you're saying - are you saying John 17:9 DOES support Calvinism becuase of John 17:20? I need clarification before I respond. smile
saderlius
user 6344760
Richardson, TX
Post #: 3
I"m not sure what you're saying - are you saying John 17:9 DOES support Calvinism becuase of John 17:20? I need clarification before I respond. smile

Let me rephrase:
from a calvinist point of view, 17:9 supports their version of election via 17:20. So yes, even though he begins by referring to his immediate group of disciples, he extends the same prayer to us via 17:20.

however, i also presented a perspective which would reinterpret election and free will as a paradox instead of a dichotomy. This would recognize the sovereignty of God the Father, meanwhile placing an onus on believers to be proactive in their faith- ie seek spiritual fruits, gifts of the spirit, and participate in spiritual warfare- basically continuing the ministry of Christ.

peace n grace,
sad
Todd H.
Hedgcoth
Group Organizer
Bedford, TX
Post #: 11
It is true that Jesus is praying for "the Twelve." However, if you read just a little further, you'll see that Jesus is praying for all future believers as well...

Jesus makes makes this abundantly clear in John 17:20 when he says, "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word..."

Notice "who will believe" is in future tense. And "these only" sure refers to his immediate disciples ("the Twelve"). His prayer at that time was for the Twelve but he expanded the scope to include all future believers.

No Calvinist (that I know of) ever claims that the writers of the Bible were writing directly to Christians in the 21st century! Rather, we must read the Bible and interpret it intelligently. In this case, we are right to apply what Jesus said to Christians in the 21st century since he claims to be praying for "all who will believe in (him)." I think this is perfectly reasonable. But it helps to read the entire passage!

By and large, the facts that were true of Christians in the first century are true of Christians in the 21st century. For example, we are chosen, we are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus, we are saved by the grace of God alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. The only possible differences that I can think of relate to the foundations of the church. For example, the Holy Spirit is here continually; it does not arrive as it did on the "Day of Pentecost" with tongues of fire. We have the scriptures of the New Testament to guide and teach us whereas the first century church did not. There may be some differences between Christians then and Christians now, but I think they are few.
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