DFW Theology & Apologetics Meetup Message Board › What about hell? Christian Universalism?
I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion last night. Here's some videos I put together about Christian Universalism and the truth about hell.
The GOOD News. What about hell?
Here are some quotations from Origen, one of the leading theologians of the Early Church:
?Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in Him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil?to quote Zephaniah: ?My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent??Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent.?
?Seeing, then, that such is the end, when all enemies will be subdued to Christ, when death - the last enemy - shall be destroyed, and when the kingdom shall be delivered up by Christ (to whom all things are subject) to God the Father; let us, I say, from such an end as this, contemplate the beginnings of things. For the end is always like the beginning: and, therefore, as there is one end to all things, so ought we to understand that there was one beginning; and as there is one end to many things, so there spring from one beginning many differences and varieties, which again, through the goodness of God, and by subjection to Christ, and through the unity of the Holy Spirit, are recalled to one end, which is like unto the beginning. --Origen, De Principiis, Book I, Chapter 6, Sections 1 and 2, ANF, Vol 4
"...When the Son is said to be subject to the Father, the perfect restoration of the whole of creation is signified, so also, when enemies are said to be subjected to the Son of God, the salvation of the conquered and the restoration of the lost is in that understood to consist." --Origen, De Principiis, Book III, Chapter 5, Section 7, ANF, Vol 4
?We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet.
All this is just some food for thought, to study and pray over.
I watched these videos. Is this what you believe? I wasn't there on thursday, I must haved a good discussion. The third video in particular, the man reading his poem.... did he even read the bible? This is a religion based on what people want to beleive, NOT the bible. OH how I wish that I would see all the people I love (the unsaved, muslims, buddist, ect) in heaven. I wish this was true but the bible does not support this thought. This religion is focusing on the word ALL and skipping all the words surrounding it. "ALL who believe".
The bible mentions Hell far more than it mentions Heaven. If Hell is not real place then Why mention it so often? However, I just watched the next few videos that state that the word Hell has been mistranslated, so let me take another avenue....
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
iF they do not enter the kingdom of heaven, where will they go?
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars?their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
revelation 21:8 clearly points us to a place that we call hell. It states that some will actually go there. why does it say this if it is not true?
I'm sure there are many more examples, but I must be going. Sorry, i picked the wrong time to get into this. Read Romans 9. some are called to righteousness and some are not.
If someone wants to believe something bad enough (like there is no hell) he can find it and support it in the bible. but supporting it requires ignoring other parts, such as hell did not really mean hell and should not have been translated that way ignores revelation 21 which clearly states there is place like hell, people do go there and it associated with death.
Sorry, i'm not very articulate.
according to scripture, everyone experiences a bit of hell and a bit of heaven , but to varying degrees. :)
gehenna is a play on the valley of gehennon where the salemites dumped refuse to decay. "thier worm will not die" is a reference to worms that eat decaying material, meaning the decaying soul will be consumed by any spiritual parasites associated with it during life.
Study the parable of the ten talents, the sower and the seed, the sower of wheat vs the sower of weeds, the parable of the wise builder, and also the esoteric teaching of leavening vs substantial increase(feeding the multitudes). These all show the metaphysical and metamechanical stucture of the soul. The soul will be resurrected to a reality, and that reality involves sifting/shaking/burning of the psyche. Whatever aspects of the psyche are rooted in the rock of God's salvation will preserve, while whatever is not will be compressed down to the original batch- the baby spirit invested by God.
Those spirits which were repentant during life will most likely accept atonement while in sheol/hades. This is why Xtians prayed and baptized for the (non-Christian)dead- to increase their chances of repentance in sheol, when the spirit of Y'shua preaches(d) to them.
Those spirits that were not repentant in life are less likely to accept atonement in sheol, and will experience more hell than the others. The degree of hell experienced by each soul is directly proportional to how much identity and motivation they tied up in ephemeral, temporal, or shifty aims.
For those who accept atonement:
1)during life, the spirit- will and conscience, are cleansed, and then every other part of the psyche which is subsequently consecrated to "His kingdom and His righteousness" will be added to the glorified body.
2)in sheol, the spirit(core identity) is cleansed, but every other aspect of the psyche will experience gehenna
both those who accept atonement during life and in sheol are transfered to "paradise"- ie fill the entire universe, to await the resurrection.
been ahwile since i heard that preached on sunday.... ;)
peace and grace,
A CRY FROM HELL sermon
Tracy, Thank you so much for your comments. I'm sorry I did not have the pleasure of meeting you. I used to feel the same way you do.
I watched these videos. Is this what you believe?I have not always believed this, but over the past few years, through much study and prayer I have come to the conclusion that Christ will succeed accomplishing what He came for - to DESTROY the work of the devil, and to to seek and to save that which was lost, and to reconcile all things back to the Father
I wasn't there on thursday, I must haved a good discussion. The third video in particular, the man reading his poem.... did he even read the bible? This is a religion based on what people want to beleive, NOT the bible. OH how I wish that I would see all the people I love (the unsaved, muslims, buddist, ect) in heaven. I wish this was true but the bible does not support this thought. This religion is focusing on the word ALL and skipping all the words surrounding it. "ALL who believe".
Jacob, when he heard that Joseph was dead, wanted to go to Sheol to meet him. Did he really want to go to hell?
Job wanted to go to Sheol to be comforted. Did he expect to be comforted in hell?
Jonah said that he was in hell forever, when he was actually in the belly of a big fish for 3 days and nights.
You hit the nail on the head, with the word 'change'.
The 'fiery lake of burning sulfur' is NOT hell. Death and hell (More accurately hades or Sheol) are cast INTO the lake of fire.
Remember that "our God IS a consuming fire." What does fire do? It produces heat and light, and changes what goes into it, from one form to another.
Why burning sulfur? This was written in Greek. In Greek thought, sulfur was known as a purifying agent and medicinal agent. Thayer's Lexicon calls it "divine incense."
In Homer's Iliad is a passage about a gold goblet being cast into fire and brimstone, to be purified.
Those that are cast into the Lake of Fire unto the ages of the ages, to be cleansed and purified.
That's what i thought. Read Romans 5:18-20 in Young's Literal Translation:
18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;
19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
20 And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound,
Through Adam's disobedience, ALL are condemned and become sinners, and through Christ's obedience, ALL are made righteous and receive justification of life. The grace of God is far more powerful and effective than Adam's sin.
Read Corinthians 15, especially verse 22:
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
The same all that die in Adam, shall be made alive in Christ.
Here's a Video explaining this verse, which also examines the opposing argument.
Savior of All Series - I Cor 15:22
I agree, but you must place Scripture in context with the ENTIRE Word of God, as originally written.
Yes, it IS associated with DEATH, not ENDLESS TORMENT. and the last enemy to be destroyed is death. When death is destroyed there will be nothing but life for all.
For further reading I would recommend reading
"The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Torment."