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Re: Re: Re: [ev-1] battery info and supply

From: Chris Van I.
Sent on: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 1:11 PM
I read this after I sent it and discovered lots of inconsistencies.  Here is an improved version.


Feb 17,[masked]:01:56 AM, [address removed] wrote:
Hi Dhillon,
If you ask twenty e-bike riders what is the best ride for commuting you'll get twenty different answers.  All twenty are valid answers.  Here's mine.
 
I own two electric bicycles and have test ridden five others, both bicycle and scooter variants.  Also spoken with several owners of other electric bikes and e-scooters.  I commute 12 miles daily in all weather except snow and road salt.  I recommend avoiding the bargain basement bikes and scooters as they come with lead acid batteries (usually gel cels) and appear to have most of the engineering effort applied to getting the price point down.  I recommend an electric bike over an e-scooter.
 
 
Electric bikes and e-scooters come in two categories in BC:  Motor Assisted Cycles (MAC) and Limited Speed Motorcycles (LSM).  Both categories come in bicycle and scooter variants.  The major differences are:
 
Motor Assisted Cycles:  Maximum motor power is 500 Watts.  Top speed with motor running is 32 Kph.  Pedals are required.  Called Pedelec in European sites.
 
Limited Speed Motorcycles:  Maximum power is 1500 watts.  Top speed on level ground is 70 Kph.  Costs more than an MAC.  Requires a licence plate and insurance.  Called E-bike in European sites.
 
Search the ICBC website for info on both categories.
 
If you are planning to pedal, I recommend the bicycle style of MAC.  The bicycle design is optimised for riding; the pedals and gearing actually work.  Since the battery is taking the brunt of hills, headwinds and starts, pedalling is no sweat.  All of the bicycle parts are commonly available at Canadian Tire and real bicycle shops.  Downside to the bicycle design is poor protection from rain.   The solution is bicycle fenders, Gore-tex (or equivalent), MEC booties and MEC handlebar muffs.  I arrive at work dry on the inside.
 
If you plan on not pedaling,   I recommend a scooter style LSM, even though LSMs are way more expensive than the MAC scooters.  The best part about scooters is better protection from road splash.  Some even come with windshields.  The downsides are: 1) pedals on a scooter-style MAC are not designed to actually do anything except keep cops from handing out tickets; and 2) MAC e-scooters generally weigh more than MAC electric bikes in the same price range, with a lot of the weight due to use of low cost iron frames, a lot of cosmetic plastic and surprisingly heavy gel cel batteries.  Maybe if you can find a MAC scooter fitted with NiCad, NiMh or Lithium batteries, it might do the job but expect to pay more for the better battery.
 
Since you give price as your most important criteria, you're pretty much limited to MAC bikes or MAC scooters with gel cel lead acid batteries.  They're heavy and every single time you run the battery down until it is any lower than 2/3 of full charge, you shorten its life.  (Search the internet for Home Power Magazine to see articles on how lead-acid battery life is inversely proportional to depth of discharge)  Note here that many e-scooter manufacturers base their claimed range for a single charge on running the battery to fully discharged.  If you do go for lead acid, take the charger with you everywhere and always recharge without delay.
 
If you're willing to do a bit of digging, there are probably a few used e-scooters for sale that only got crashed once, or have batteries that died prematurely from neglect.  To make sure you're getting good value from a used e-bike, price out a set of replacement batteries plus the cost to fix anything that's broke that needs to be fixed (don't worry about scratched or busted plastic; that's what Duct Tape is for).  If the scooter is a crash victim, look for dented or cracked metal frame parts and twisted wheels.  Oh, and take it for a test ride in the rain to make sure the electronics are still weatherproof.  Half an hour in the wet ought to do it.
 
Or better still, maybe there's someone in the e-bike community reading this email who really wants to upgrade to a better electric bike and just needs a little encouragement to sell his/her current steed.
 
Regards,
Chris Van Ihinger


Feb 16,[masked]:13:18 PM, [address removed] wrote:
hi, i am looking at purchasing a scooter or electric bicycle for my 10 km work commute in surrey. I did look @ motorino buy they are kind of expensive. I think there's scooters out there for 1/2 that price. If you pls give me some insight, i would really appreciated.
 
Thx
Dhillon
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 16,[masked]:20 PM
Subject: Re: [ev-1] battery info and supply

I have also heard that it is hard to beat the price/performance (but not the weight) of a lead-acid deep cycle battery.

My Motorino XPh uses a main battery of:

 - 48V 20AH SLAVR (gel-cell sealed lead-acid deep cycle battery), which consists of 4, 12V 20AH SLAVR batteries connected in series.

I have been using the XPh for my ~15KM (each way) work commute now for 7 months and have logged just over 4,000 KM.  I bought the XPh second hand and it (and the battery) was about 1.5 years old when I got it (i.e. it is now over 2 years old).  I think the ~30 minute commute between Vancouver and Richmond uses about 1/2 the battery, which seems to take about 3 or 4 hours to recharge at each end.  Since I start recharging the battery at each end of the commute, I don't think much sulfating is happening, which should help the batter last longer.  I also don't leave the battery in a un-heated place during the cold weather in order to try and extend it's life.

I'm not sure how this compares to others, but the battery seems to still be holding up well, so I hope to get at least another couple of months use out of it (I have been told that they only last a couple of years).

On a related topic and just as a FYI: The charger I have goes into a trickle, or drip, mode once it thinks the battery is fully charged, but I think it is better to disconnect the charger at this point (although I was told you don't have to).  I have noticed that the battery seems to work better when it is not left on the charger for days at a time (like over the weekend as opposed to over-night).  So I went to Canadian tire and bought a timer for it that works well:

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/3/HouseHome/Lighting/ElectricalTimers/PRD~[masked]P/Noma%252BOutdoor%252BTimer.jsp

The 6 hour setting works good for me..

Regards, ST

P.S. Mike, 300,000 kms and counting on a crystalite kit... that is something.




From: coffeeluke <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Mon, February 15,[masked]:38:39 PM
Subject: RE: [ev-1] battery info and supply

the same batts were $135 for 6.

Luv ya all Luke



> From: [address removed]
> To: [address removed]
> Subject: Re: [ev-1] battery info and supply
> Date: Mon, 15 Feb[masked]:59:23 -0500
>
> What kind of battery are you looking for?
> I swear by lead acid only as they give me the range I require at a cost
> effective price JVbike has some magic Chinese cells that seem to last
> far longer then locally sourced ones I've got as much as 10 months for
> $160 at pretty much full range. Till other battery forms become cheaper
> or lead gets more expensive I'll stick to them as I only require 10-12
> miles but i use them daily and charge them twice a day.
>
> 300,000 kms and counting on a crystalite kit ;)
>
>
> coffeeluke wrote:
> > Become a member of veva and edmonds batterie is wholesale
> >
> >
> > Luv ya all Luke
> >
> >
> >
> > To: [address removed]
> > Subject: Re: [ev-1] battery info and supply
> > From: [address removed]
> > Date: Wed, 10 Feb[masked]:54:51 -0500
> >
> > You might inquire with the folks at www.ebike.ca
> >
> > tomSent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
> > *From: * Eric <[address removed]>
> > *Date: *Wed, 10 Feb[masked]:47:29 -0500
> > *To: *<[address removed]>
> > *Subject: *RE: [ev-1] Fw: [Velolove-Vancouver] Reminder: "Take Back
> > OurCity!!" No Corporate Oilympics! Feb. 12, 3 PM- VAG
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I am sure that the topic of batteries have been covered....
> >
> > Is there currently some magic formula that outshines the rest
> > available....... in $$$ per Kw hour
> >
> > Where is the best place in the Vancouver area or outskirts where I can
> > get a good battery deal.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > > To: [address removed]
> > > Subject: Re: [ev-1] Fw: [Velolove-Vancouver] Reminder: "Take Back
> > OurCity!!" No Corporate Oilympics! Feb. 12, 3 PM- VAG
> > > From: [address removed]
> > > Date: Wed, 10 Feb[masked]:03:28 -0500
> > >
> > >
> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=DoLQ6ThezTk&fulldescription=1&hl=en&gl=CA&client=mv-google
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dan Hunter <[address removed]>
> > > Date: Wed, 10 Feb[masked]:34:44
> > > To: <[address removed]>
> > > Subject: Re: [ev-1] Fw: [Velolove-Vancouver] Reminder: "Take Back Our
> > > City!!" No Corporate Oilympics! Feb. 12, 3 PM- VAG
> > >
> > >
> > > What??
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Subcomandante Tomato" <[address removed]>
> > > To: <[address removed]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 09,[masked]:12 PM
> > > Subject: [ev-1] Fw: [Velolove-Vancouver] Reminder: "Take Back Our
> > City!!" No
> > > Corporate Oilympics! Feb. 12, 3 PM- VAG
> > >
> > >
> > > Put your pedals on & join the Mass!
> > >
> > > tc
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [address removed]
> > > Date: Tue, 9 Feb[masked]:05:39
> > > To: <[address removed]>
> > > Subject: [Velolove-Vancouver] Reminder: "Take Back Our City!!" No
> > Corporate
> > > Oilympics! Feb. 12, 3 PM- VAG
> > >
> > > Hello Beautiful Bikers of the Critical Mass,
> > >
> > > This is a reminder that on Friday Feb. 12th, @ 3 PM, set to coincide
> > with
> > > opening ceremonies of the 2010 Winter Oilympics. A "Festival of
> > Resistance"
> > > will take place at our traditional gathering place, the Vancouver Art
> > > Gallery. Exercising our Cdn Charter Rights to shout down the corporate
> > > spectacle for what it is: The festival will expose to the global
> > media the
> > > links that the IOC has to perpetuating the environmentally destructive
> > > Alberta Tarsands, the accent to Militarism with the Olympic's obscene
> > > $1Billion 'security' expenditure, and a myriad of other offensive
> > > impositions foisted on our progressive communities by this corporate
> > > spectacle.
> > >
> > > Be there with your beautiful bike!
> > > Become a part of the BIKE:BLOC!
> > > Show the global media here to cover the Games what sustainable
> > > transportation looks like. THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!
> > >
> > > Ride on & takin' the lane,
> > > tom
> > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> > > "TAKE BACK OUR CITY" deets:
> > > - please post widely -
> > >
> > > TAKE BACK OUR CITY:
> > >
> > > ?Welcome? the 2010 Olympic Torch with Free Games, Free Speech and
> > Free Food!
> > >
> > > * Friday, February 12, 2010, 3pm
> > >
> > > * Vancouver Art Gallery (Georgia Street, between Howe and Hornby)
> > >
> > > Join us in a public festival at the Vancouver Art Gallery at 3pm
> > followed by
> > > a parade to protest the opening ceremonies of the 2010 Olympics at
> > BC Place
> > > Stadium.
> > >
> > > As the Winter Games begin, we will show the world the negative
> > impacts of
> > > the Olympic industry and celebrate our communities with our own
> > games and
> > > entertainment.
> > >
> > > * The 2010 Welcoming Committee supports the participation of parents
> > and
> > > caregivers. Childcare arrangements and registration at:
> > > 2010welcoming.wordpress.com/details
> > >
> > > While City and Olympic officials try to turn our city into a sanitized
> > > corporate image, we experience:
> > >
> > > * Increasing homelessness, poverty, illegal evictions and rent
> > increases,
> > > * Union-busting and public services cutbacks with a $6 billion Olympic
> > > budget,
> > > * Threats to civil liberties and crackdowns on visible poverty,
> > > * At least 15,000 police, soldiers, spies and security forces and
> > public
> > > video monitoring,
> > > * Corporate sponsors engaged in arms manufacturing, human rights
> > abuses, and
> > > the environmentally destructive Alberta Tar Sands,
> > > * Exploitation of unceded Indigenous land and resources,
> > > * Major environmental damage to build the ?Green Games,? and more ...
> > >
> > > Public space has been turned over to the Games but the community has
> > fought
> > > back and preserved our rights to protest. Now is your chance to
> > Stand Up, Be
> > > Counted and Take Back Our City!
> > >
> > > Organized by the 2010 Welcoming Committee: community groups, service
> > > providers, activists and educators united by a social justice
> > critique of
> > > the Games.
> > >
> > > Contact: [address removed]
> > > Visit: 2010welcoming.wordpress.com
> > >
> > > The 2010 Welcoming Committee is endorsed by:
> > >
> > > 2010 Watch, Alliance for People?s Health, Anti-Poverty Committee,
> > Bridgeview
> > > Community Action Group, Building Bridges Human Rights ? Vancouver, Bus
> > > Riders? Union, Check your Head, Citywide Housing Coalition, Colour
> > Connected
> > > Against Racism ? UBC, Co-op Radio Bulland Awaaz, Co-op Radio The
> > Rational,
> > > Community Olympics Watch, Council of Canadians ? National, Council of
> > > Canadians ? Delta/Richmond Chapter, Council of Canadians-
> > Vancouver/Burnaby
> > > Chapter, Council of Senior Citizens Organizations ? Sunshine Coast
> > Chapter,
> > > DTES Community Arts Network, DTES Power of Women Group, East Van
> > > Abolitionists, Ethical Environmental Consulting, Federation of Iranian
> > > Refugees, Food not Bombs ? Vancouver, Freedom Socialist Party,
> > Friends of
> > > Women in the Middle East Society, GatewaySucks.org, Impact of the
> > Olympics
> > > on Communities Coalition, Indigenous Action Movement, Industrial
> > Workers of
> > > the World, Iran Solidarity, Justicia 4 Migrant Workers, Latin America
> > > Connexions Collective, no2010.com, No 2010 Victoria, No One Is
> > Illegal ?
> > > Vancouver, OilSandsTruth.org, Olympic Resistance Network, Pink
> > Resistance,
> > > Poverty Olympics, Progressive Nepali Forum in Americas, Siraat
> > Collective,
> > > Progressive Nepali Forum in Americas, Simon Fraser University Public
> > > Research Interest Group, Social Justice Centre ? UBC, Solidarity Notes
> > > Labour Choir, StopWar.ca, Streams of Justice, Student Christian
> > Movement ?
> > > UBC, subMedia, Surrey Urban Youth Project, Teaching Support Staff Union
> > > Social Justice Committee, UBC Network of Sri Lankan Law Students,
> > Vancouver
> > > Action, Vancouver Status of Women, VANDU Womyn?s Group, Warrior
> > > Publications, West End Wild Animal Alliance, Whister Watch, Workers
> > > Communist Party of Iran, and Work Less Party.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "In the contradiction lies the hope."
> > > -- Bertholt Brecht
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
> > >
> > > ---- Velolove discussion list --------------------------------
> > > [address removed]
> > > http://lists.velolove.bc.ca/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> > > -------------------------------------- Velo Love for All! ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
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