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Re: [ruby-112] From a business perspective is it a good idea to build in Rails?

From: Ali T.
Sent on: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:17 PM
James, I really hate to drag this conversation on any longer than needed, but I feel necessary to share some thoughts here. 

I really don't think the conversation should be about what to do so companies would be more open to hiring "juniors". The companies have certain needs and they are hungry for good people. 

Having been on both sides of this equation (job-hunting as well as hiring), the only real solution is the most obvious one: there are no shortcuts! If as a developer you really want a job, make yourself qualified for it. Work your butt off! Spend time on your own projects, consulting gigs, open-source projects, or even made up projects, and work on them literally day and night. Get good. It's that simple. 

And when you show up to an interview, feel free to share what you've been up to, including the fact that you have been working extremely hard to learn fast, that you will continue to do that, that you are passionate about the job you are applying for, that learning is important for you, and that you are willing to pay your dues to grow.

I hope this helps at least one developer out there who is willing to listen.

Ali Tajsekandar
Founder & CEO

[address removed]

Follow Wishpond on:  


On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 4:04 PM, James Robey <[address removed]> wrote:
I agree with the earlier comments that this thread has been overly
negative against companies not hiring juniors, and that's not what
this thread should have been about, but perhaps about sharing ideas on
what it takes to hire juniors successfully.  What type of culture or
codebase or development practices would make it easier?

Kalvir,

#10 made me pause a bit, and then I noticed you wrote "Do you not hire
Juniors because you have a CodeClimate GPA over 3".  Eric was actually
saying the opposite, that if the CodeClimate GPA is over 3, the
company would be much more tolerant (or capable) of hiring Junior
developers.  An interesting point to raise, the quality of the
codebase & the practices required to keep it well-factored could make
it easier to bring on juniors.

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Kalvir Sandhu <[address removed]> wrote:
> Hey Eric,
>
> Thanks again for contributing to the mailing list albeit with a bit of
> passive aggression to the employers in our community. But your truthful
> opinion on the state of recruitment in Vancouver is fair and yours to share.
>
> I've been working with development positions for sometime and have hired
> what you call 'Juniors' (i don't really like calling people junior,
> intermediate, senior), have even encouraged a number of local companies to
> hire (3 in total and counting, some externally because those here were not
> *good enough*). I could say I’m doing what I can by running the Ruby meetup
> and making a good home for developers to learn, share and grow.
>
> Your post is long and has a lot to it, making it difficult to reply but I
> wanted to add some thoughts to this discussion. Sorry if it's a bit
> un-structured and reads badly, this is rushed.
>
> I would be surprised to see others reply because of this - something to
> consider if you want to encourage conversation, maybe make it friendly, open
> and short.
>
> Naming companies is not cool mate, I'm sorry but why should I believe your
> perspective on what Clio does or not. I don't know why they don't want to
> hire developers at your stage because I don't work there, know their hiring
> policy, team culture, code quality, etc. Clio is a believer of the community
> which in turn helps developers grow (they've helped sponsor and run ruby
> meetups).
>
> Have you ever hired early developers? I have and it's hard for many reasons
> not all just business but sometimes because experienced developers don't
> make good mentors, irrelevant of how much they've done. I've worked with
> some great engineers but they've been awful at teaching.
>
> On your hypotheisis - mostly these are false, I've seen companies hire early
> developers that fit these opinions (I'm assuming you didn't qualify these
> with the companies you spoke with "Do you not hire Juniors because you have
> a CodeClimate GPA over 3"?). If people would like to know of the companies
> that did hire please ask me at the next ruby meetup or email me. I'm happy
> to tell you of those companies.
>
> Eric, I find it hard to digest your findings because of your position. You
> don't run those departments or know the real reasons on why they are hiring
> or not. Was this based on whether they wanted to hire you or not? As an
> employer I know that sometimes people don't reveal all about the company and
> role, in some cases people aren't a good fit because of character team fit.
>
> As for dropping Rails, I worked at a company before that chose a different
> technology because of talent difficulties, it ended up shifting the problems
> elsewhere. Sure, select the right tool for the job based on your team
> experience but you can't really just change from Rails on a web app to Play
> (one of the Java frameworks) if you can't hire more developers. It's a
> little harder than that:
>
> - Cost to the business, persuading the board
> - New technologies and maintainability awareness, what's the long term
> effects
> - Who is the so-called "senior" now?
> - Educating the existing staff
> - Existing team might just up end up leaving
>
> Anyhow, I look forward to seeing this passion you have applied in writing
> emails be applied to the open source projects like Rails or other projects
> that will make you a better developer and in turn make Vancouver have better
> quality developers. Something that will matter in this race to find a job as
> a developer.
>
> --
> Kalv
>
> On April 15, 2014 at 8:45:17 AM, Eric Brooke ([address removed]) wrote:
>
> Do you have the developers you need onboard?  Is what I ask, now.
>
> There are some companies in Vancouver who have being trying to find senior
> developers for the last six months without any luck.  I know four companies
> in Vancouver who have over 10 rails developers who want to double their
> number by years end. Then there is a bunch of startups (you know under 10
> people) who are desperately trying to get, that one extra developer.
>
> Several recruiters, I spoke to said to me they cannot believe the approach
> that some companies in Vancouver,BC are taking, waiting for that perfect
> Unicorn, when in time it is taking them to recruit they could have grown a
> Junior to an Intermediate. Whilst in other markets such as Toronto, Seattle,
> Portland, Boston, New York and San Francisco.  Companies are looking for the
> right people to grow.
>
> And that is before you talk about pay.
>
> There is one shining example and that is Clio, who look at all at the full
> range,  had a great chat with one of their seniors, who showed me the
> offices, which frankly is the best environment I have seen so far, their
> mobility between projects is high, as is their tolerance for learning new
> languages i.e. Objective C. Their tech testing is fair, no rails question
> but a good set nonetheless.
>
> The simple fact is if we do not grow more rails/ruby developers the
> framework/language may change to fit the needs of the businesses that want
> to build their web/mobile applications now and not wait six months to find
> someone. Six months could kill some businesses.
>
> Here is my current hypothesis for whether a company will employ juniors:
>
> The more Seniors in a company the bigger the reluctance to coaching juniors.
> Where Seniors are not comfortable with collaboration, and human interaction.
> Sometimes they believe they are great at humans (or really do not care),
> where as they come off as just arrogant.
> Where there is a mix of Intermediates and Seniors there is an openness to
> coaching juniors.
> Intermediates who are generally more open to coaching, they seem to follow
> up their words with actions..
> Where the organization culture is a true mix of
> learning/reflection/growth/mobility.
> Survival mode companies, do not employ juniors, where the priority is
> velocity
> Where the culture is very competitive and “male”, do not employ juniors,
> unless you are a math graduate..
> Where the priority is on culture not just velocity, do.  Sometime driven by
> business not technology people.
> Where there is the wider coverage of tests, then there is less reluctance to
> bringing on juniors.
> Where the code climate GPA is higher then 3
> Where the Seniors have had multiple jobs in the past they tend to be more
> open.
> Where the Seniors have worked both small and large companies
> Confident, open Senior who just thinks it is the right thing to do, because
> they see coaching as part of their growth and have stepped over the fear.
> And the business has not oppressed them into survival mode.
> Where the technologist actual bought into community, and not a means to an
> end i.e. their pay.
> Polygots in either language or careers are the most open to coaching
>
> So a real mix of culture, personality, and leadership.
>
> If business leaders, lead technologists and Seniors do NOT open their minds,
> I think they could actually kill their businesses, or they will need to move
> to a language/framework that has a higher supply.
>
> Local companies need to step up and provide the community with more then
> just event venues!
>
> The timing is right for a cultural shift, with two companies producing
> interns, and many more people joining the community. We decide now if there
> will be a healthy sustainable rails/ruby community.
>
> Hire some juniors already!
>
> P.S. I now have a map of those that do, but maybe I will build it in a
> Javascript framework ;-)
> P.S.S I considered saying a PHP framework, but that was my past, I am almost
> crying now..
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
>
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on
> this mailing list ([address removed])
> This message was sent by Kalvir Sandhu ([address removed]) from Vancouver Ruby
> Meetup Group.
> To learn more about Kalvir Sandhu, visit his/her member profile
>
> To report this message or block the sender, please click here
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