addressalign-toparrow-leftarrow-rightbackbellblockcalendarcameraccwcheckchevron-downchevron-leftchevron-rightchevron-small-downchevron-small-leftchevron-small-rightchevron-small-upchevron-upcircle-with-checkcircle-with-crosscircle-with-pluscrossdots-three-verticaleditemptyheartexporteye-with-lineeyefacebookfolderfullheartglobegmailgooglegroupshelp-with-circleimageimagesinstagramlinklocation-pinm-swarmSearchmailmessagesminusmoremuplabelShape 3 + Rectangle 1ShapeoutlookpersonJoin Group on CardStartprice-ribbonShapeShapeShapeShapeImported LayersImported LayersImported Layersshieldstartickettrashtriangle-downtriangle-uptwitteruserwarningyahoo

Re: [atheists-55] Re: Tyranny of the atheist minority

From: jason
Sent on: Friday, May 16, 2008 3:05 PM
please remove me from your email list.  thank you.
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Jeff Wismer <[address removed]>
Steve,
 
I'm very glad you brought up your initial concerns...and that leads me to a great back and forth going on between a member and I on the beltway atheists meetup page...
 
---------------------------------------------Start Conversation----------------------------------------
 

One more thing to add...These are numbers I got off of his 1-888- USA - Word...on the website..so therefore public consumption.

 

Now that we have that one squared away...on to the rest of your agrument...


 

On 5/16/08, Solomon  wrote:

 

Jeff, there's a big difference between confronting the bigots and harassing them. 

 

Obviously by putting up the number my intention was to advocate calling him...you're argument is black & white...what about the grey of just letting him know that it's wrong, and then hang up???

 


 

The place to address and refute these sorts of slanders and strawmen is in the public square where other people can see and hear for themselves just how stupid and wrongheaded these sorts of arguments are. 

 

That's very idealistic isn't it...how many times are we (atheists) called to the public square to defend ourselves? (see CNN fiasco "Are atheists discriminated against in the USA)

 


 

We're not going to gain anything by trying to threaten this guy or anyone else like him into silence or a changed opinion. 

 

Once again you jump to a absurd conclusion...why threaten...I feel that you have a very biased and uwarranted opinion of me, and I don't know where this is coming from...any empirical evidence that points to me ever threatening anyone?


 

If anything, we're just going to give him and his ilk added ammunition about how degenerate and amoral we are.

 

Or in other words, it's better to stick your head in the  sand....i.e. Politically Correct Atheism... http://www.freethoughtforum.org/trackback/204

 


 

If our goal is to convince the public that we are reasonable, good people, we're burdened with having to act that way.

 

And we haven't been doing that?  (examples ..Tabling, Pope Protest, Happy Hours)


 

Giving out the personal telephone numbers of someone you don't like or disagree with for something done in the public square is neither reasonable, nor a good idea.

 

First...Reasonable....I thought that's what we're fighting for here...REASON

 

Second....Good Idea....That's what we're fighting again...Ideology


 

Solomon

 

Thank you for those soft-balls.

On 5/16/08, Solomon  wrote:

What other interpretation are we supposed to read when you send out a message just saying "Billy Boy's personal phone #..." with nothing else?

 

I guess thinking for yourself / or doing some research is out of the question...what are we a religious organization?

 


 

I think you're missing my point.  Of course we have to respond to things like this piece.  But, the real harm of it isn't that the author thinks these things.  The harm is that it might influence other people into agreement with him.  That's why we have to keep stepping out into the public arena to address such arguments.  Simply because we want all the people who've read this garbage to also see why it's wrong.

 

 

I agree, and we do that, and WHY CAN"T WE DO BOTH what you're suggesting and calling him to let him know that atheist are deeply offended by this hate propaganda....remember in any grassroots movement.."It takes all kinds"...you see variety is the spice of life solomon...like having chocolate, strawberry & vanilla ice cream at the same time.  Your argument reminds me of Prof. Matthew Nisbet.


 

I'll certainly agree that we do quite a bit to put ourselves in the public eye where it can been seen that we're not accurately represented by the caricatures presented by people such as this guy. 

 

agreed

 


 

My point was that we have nothing to gain

 

really?  Why not

 


 

and a hell of a lot to lose if we start trying to respond to every ignorant article by calling the personal phones of their authors.

 

What to we have to lose Solomon?  Where is our National TV show?  Where are our senators representing us in Congress?  Where is the advocacy groups in every city/town/village? or college campus?

 

We can't afford to continue to be this naive, and this afraid

 

As Prince Leto said in Dune..."(Extreme Unhealthy) Fear is the mind killer, I shall not fear"

 



 
On 5/16/08, Steve Z. <[address removed]> wrote:


So I called the 888 number. The first time I got what appeared to be a woman's voice and she
gave a number that I couldn't make out.  On the second try it was a evidently Federer himself.
He gave one of the posted numbers to contact him.

This does imply that the number is associated with his business/work.

However, I would just like to clarify my initial concerns.

I do not believe personal/private information should be posted without permission.

I would also ask that we refrain from waging a harassment campaign against anyone,
no matter how inane and insulting their views and statements.

I'm not saying this was Jeff's intent, but it is the implication I got on first seeing the number.

I believe we should respond in ways that do not cause us to look the same or worse than those we
are against.

T hanks,

Steve Z.


The difference between genius and stupidity, is genius has its limits.-- Albert Einstein.

________________________________
> From: [address removed]
> To: [address removed]
> Subject: Re: [atheists-55] Re: Tyranny of the atheist minority
> Date: Fri, 16 May[masked]:19:50 -0400
>
> He was brilliant enough to list those numbers at the end of the voice-mail answering maching when you call that phone # 1-888-USA-WORD.
>
> On 5/16/08, Steve Z. <[address removed]> wrote:
>
>
> Do you mean the American Minute and Amerisearch sites?
>
> Those came up when I searched
>
> Where did you find those numbers on those pages? or am I looking at the wrong sites?
> Not denying they are there, just want to see for myself.
>
> Also, if they are there, it would imply that those numbers are associated with his work and
> not personal numbers.  As I said, I'm against personal (perhaps I should be saying 'private')
> information being posted.
>
> Steve Z.
>
>
> The difference between genius and stupidity, is genius has its limits.-- Albert Einstein.
>
> ________________________________
>> From: [address removed]
>> To: [address removed]
>> Subject: Re: [atheists-55] Re: Tyranny of the atheist minority
>> Date: Fri, 16 May[masked]:03:45 -0700
>>
>> These are numbers I got off of his 1-888- USA - Word...so therefore public consumption.
>>
>> On 5/16/08, Steve Z. <[address removed]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> And this was my response to Jeff's Response.
>>
>>>However, by posting it you are tacitly telling people to harass this guy.  This makes us appear
>>>just as belligerent and asinine as him.
>>
>>>If the numbers you posted are his office and work phones, then you may have a point.
>>
>>>But you said that one was his personal number.  He has just as much right to not be
>>>harassed at home as you and I.  There must be other more reasonable and, in my opinion,
>>>mature ways to respond to that ridiculous article.
>>
>>>I don't want people's personal information posted without their permission.
>>
>>>Steve Z.
>>
>>
>> The difference between genius and stupidity, is genius has its limits.-- Albert Einstein.
>>
>> ________________________________
& gt;>> From: [address removed]
>>> To: [address removed]
>>> Subject: [atheists-55] Re: Tyranny of the atheist minority
>>> Date: Fri, 16 May[masked]:47:57 -0700
>>>
>>> It was just recently brought to my attention that posting phone #'s may be crossing the line.
>>>
>>> Well as I answered that person, so will I now answer anyone else who thinks that it's crossing the line...
>>>
>>> I humbly disagree...I think it pales in comparison to that OVER the TOP news article.
>>>
>>> Either we stand up for who we are, and confront Bigots like these, (not every bigot mind you, but I think this guy just made a great case for himself) b/c I think IT IS prudent to pick & choose your battles.  Wether this person is sane or not, he has it posted on a na tional news site, and he is the head of a national organization.
>>>
>>> As yoda said to Luke Skywalker..."Don't underestimate the powers of the dark side"
>>>
>>> Especially in this case, were the article is nothing less than a haineous attack on atheist everywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>>  We don't confront the Bigots and continue to bitch and complain about being "persecuted minority" umongst ourselves...which got tired like 7 years ago.
>>>
>>> [http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/amc0787l.jpg]
>>>
>>> Quoting the late Saul Alinsky, who was renowned for his community organizing skills, Rudin noted that it only takes 2% of society to make change if it is a well-organized, fully committed cadre. "The other 98% is pretty inert."
>>>
>>> ;
>>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
>> http://atheists.meetup.com/55
>> This message was sent by Steve Z. ([address removed]) from The Baltimore Atheists Meetup Group.
>> To learn more about Steve Z., visit his/her member profile: http://atheists.meetup.com/55/members/68290/
>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm
>>
>> Meetup Support: [address removed]
>> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
>> This message was sent by Jeff Wismer ([address removed]) from The Baltimore Atheists Meetup Group.
>> To learn more about Jeff Wismer, visit his/her member profile
>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here
>>
>> Meetup Support: [address removed]
>> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.
> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ GreaterGood
>
>
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> http://atheists.meetup.com/55
> This message was sent by Steve Z. ([address removed]) from The Baltimore Atheists Meetup Group.
> To learn more about Steve Z., visit his/her member profile: http://athei sts.meetup.com/55/members/68290/
> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm
>
> Meetup Support: [address removed]
> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> This message was sent by Jeff Wismer ([address removed]) from The Baltimore Atheists Meetup Group.
> To learn more about Jeff Wismer, visit his/her member profile
> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here
>
> Meetup Support: [address removed]
> 632 Broadway New York NY 1001 2 USA

_________________________________________________________________
Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008


--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
http://atheists.meetup.com/55
This message was sent by Steve Z. ([address removed]) from The Baltimore Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Steve Z., visit his/her member profile: http://atheists.meetup.com/55/members/68290/
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm

Meetup Support: [address removed]
632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Jeff Wismer ([address removed]) from The Baltimore Atheists Meetup Group.
To learn more about Jeff Wismer, visit his/her member profile
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here

Meetup Support: [address removed]
632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA

People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy