From: linda
Sent on: Friday, March 16, 2012, 4:40 PM
Personally, I think we should insist on some kind of "economic impact study" before this money gets spent.  There are numerous studies that have been done in metropolitan areas around the country that have demonstrated that most of these giant retailers actually cannibalize local retail sales (and thus local jobs).  In other words, despite the big $$$ they throw around in terms of the sales their individual store can generate and the jobs they create, when you look at the overall net impact to a local economy, the results are often a net zero impact at best (not to mention the environmental damage....but I digress). 

Here's just one example I found with a quick google search (http://labusinessjournal.com/news/2011/aug/29/gains-wal-mart-style-stores-not-so-super/)...but there are plenty of resources on the internet to back this up.  In fact, its one reason that Austin maintains its "Keep Austin Weird" movement - not just encouraging people to shop local but also to outright ban big box retailers and such from infiltrating certain sections of the city.  Visit sites like AMIBA.org, and you will find dozens more all with the same story:

No "net" job creation 
No local wealth creation 
And definitely no high-wage skill creation

To pay $15million dollars on something that frankly could have a big-fat $0 impact (or worse) on the local community would be a shame....but I say let them prove that this money can't be better spent on something better.  It's too big a gamble for us to spend that kind of money today without some kind of data collection (based in facts, not assumptions).

For folks who want to throw around the startup failure rate....no one would disagree with those facts.  But I think those folks are missing the point.

Whether you call it investing in a "startup community" or an "innovation-based economy", these folks are concerned about real local job creation (net new jobs), real high-wage skill creation and the eventual local wealth creation.  Startups with seed capital to spend typically spend that money on local talent with the best technology/creative skills.  This increased demand for skills spurs more development of those skills.  Increased demand for skills (along with startups representing the next-generation economy) not only attracts more college students and professors, but also helps to retain that talent when they graduate.   This increased demand for skills and increasing number of startups also has a by-product effect of making the area appear more "tech savvy" and thus helps larger local companies recruit and retain better talent.  And when communities can create a dense cluster of talent, it further perpetuates the cycle and fosters more business and technology innovation.  

So what if even 100% of the startups fail....the local economy has been improved in a very sustainable manner and an infinite number of new companies will continue to be formed with all the new local talent.

Perhaps we should insist on two economic impact studies - one showing the benefit of spending $15million on "luring" (sorry for the pun) a Bass Pro Shop and another study of the benefit of investing the $15 million in our local startup community (and local skills-based economy).  

Wouldn't the prudent thing be for our county to spend this $15million where it will have the most impact?

I say let them do some homework before they write this check.

Not convinced,
Lo




On Mar 16, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Brian French wrote:

Hogwash…

 

The 15% of startups that succeed could make millions for their owners (heard of Bill Jackson’s?). That’s millions that will likely stay in the local economy.

 

The “jobs” that Bass Pro Shops create will not create any real wealth for anyone in Hillsborough county.  Peanut slave wages. As soon as the money comes into the store it will get wired out faster than a largemouth hitting a nightcrawler.

 

Some opinions aren’t worth two cents…

 

Bri

 

Concerning Bass Pro Shops and the $15m investment by the county:

(it’s corporate welfare for a company that makes millions)

 

I hate to say this, but more often than not, this is a great move by local governments.  It's good business sense!  Why?  Because right way, it will add about 100+ new jobs to the economy (assuming they don't build a new building, (if you spent 15 million dollars on digging holes it would create jobs too) I'm sure they would do; which means even more money) and a new proven business that pays loads of taxes (property, payroll, etc.)  Then, there is the trickle down theory.  (how exactly does this help the small tackle shop?) For example, 100 new jobs translates into approximately 20 new cars, 100 auto insurance policies, and 1,200 pizzas a year.  (let’s just have a pizza party instead) Well, you get the idea.  I'd guess the payback on that 15 million is less than 3 years.  I'd bet the 'contract' stipulates that Bass Pro has to stay in the area for anywhere from 10 to 20 years.  (in 20 years we turn into Pottersville) Honestly, this is smart government.

 

The great thing about Bass Pro Shops is that vacationers travel hundreds of miles to wander down their isles (fantasy).  I'd estimate that approximately 50% of their revenue is from people who don't live in the area?  Why is that important?  (it’s called tourism and local tackle would get these customers otherwise) shops Because that means tons of additional revenue (hogwash.. where is the proof of that) (and taxes) with no accompanying service load (i.e no schools to build, etc.).  Plus, visitors eat, sleep, drive, buy gas, go to movies, etc.(crazy talk)  This means lots of trickle down money for the local economy. (more like trickled on)

 

What surprises me is that they'd even consider putting it in Hillsborough.  I'd think given the closer proximity to the water that St. Pete would be a much wiser move on their part.  But I digress...

 

Now, compare that to spending 15 million on local startups....  Well, guess what?  Startups fail.  At a rate of about 85%.  So, what's that?  About 2.25 million?  Then, throw in the cost to administer such a program and what would we really be getting?  1.8 million?  As a tax payer, this doesn't seem to be such a wise use of my money.

(when you help a startup’s competitor you hurt the startup)

Don't get me wrong, (but you are) I'm extremely pro-startup.  (but you aren’t) But, I don't think county governments have the expertise necessary to manage such a program.  (who asked them?) Hey, I don't think churches should get in the startup business either.  The environment for startups in Florida seems to be halfway decent.  The state of Florida has a matching funds program.  Plus, add all the venture capital groups in town and the 'high tech corridor' program and this area provides loads of opportunities for us startups.

 

Well, that's just my $.02 worth.

Thanks!

Mike B.

 

 

 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Peter Sysko
Sent: Friday, March 16,[masked]:31 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [web-126] Hillsborough County and $15M

 


wow

 

mike b  is right about this

and he proved it well

standing against the

swarm of complainers. 

cheers

 

many of us would tend to align our

arguments to those that could benefit our personal lives much

easier than the side that would makes us a smaller stakeholder.

there is no reason why a bunch of tech geeks should win over a proven business model for grant money on those descriptors alone

 

Wanting to believe that is a horrible government idea

doesn't make it one

 

one key virtue in life and business I've learned is to take your share of the world while letting other people have theirs. both are required or else it's not fair 

 

oh and doesn't anyone try

save and invest money from their customers and clients anymore for launching new startup ideas?

 

thank for your time. all

 

 

 

 

Regards,

               ~ Peter S. Sysko                                    

                    

 

"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not."

                                 - the Lorax

          by Theodor Seuss Geisel

                           


On Mar 16, 2012, at 10:15 AM, "Mike B.." <[address removed]> wrote:

Concerning Bass Pro Shops and the $15m investment by the county:

 

I hate to say this, but more often than not, this is a great move by local governments.  It's good business sense!  Why?  Because right way, it will add about 100+ new jobs to the economy (assuming they don't build a new building, which I'm sure they would do; which means even more money) and a new proven business that pays loads of taxes (property, payroll, etc.)  Then, there is the trickle down theory.  For example, 100 new jobs translates into approximately 20 new cars, 100 auto insurance policies, and 1,200 pizzas a year.  Well, you get the idea.  I'd guess the payback on that 15 million is less than 3 years.  I'd bet the 'contract' stipulates that Bass Pro has to stay in the area for anywhere from 10 to 20 years.  Honestly, this is smart government.

 

The great thing about Bass Pro Shops is that vacationers travel hundreds of miles to wander down their isles.  I'd estimate that approximately 50% of their revenue is from people who don't live in the area?  Why is that important?  Because that means tons of additional revenue (and taxes) with no accompanying service load (i.e no schools to build, etc.).  Plus, visitors eat, sleep, drive, buy gas, go to movies, etc.  This means lots of trickle down money for the local economy.

 

What surprises me is that they'd even consider putting it in Hillsborough.  I'd think given the closer proximity to the water that St. Pete would be a much wiser move on their part.  But I digress...

 

Now, compare that to spending 15 million on local startups....  Well, guess what?  Startups fail.  At a rate of about 85%.  So, what's that?  About 2.25 million?  Then, throw in the cost to administer such a program and what would we really be getting?  1.8 million?  As a tax payer, this doesn't seem to be such a wise use of my money.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely pro-startup.  But, I don't think county governments have the expertise necessary to manage such a program.  Hey, I don't think churches should get in the startup business either.  The environment for startups in Florida seems to be halfway decent.  The state of Florida has a matching funds program.  Plus, add all the venture capital groups in town and the 'high tech corridor' program and this area provides loads of opportunities for us startups.

 

Well, that's just my $.02 worth.

Thanks!

Mike B.

 

 

 

From: Brenda Young <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thursday, March 15,[masked]:25 PM
Subject: Re: [web-126] Hillsborough County and $15M

 

This is an issue that should be near and dear to the hearts of everyone on this list. How many people with great ideas who could implement quickly and successfully have we seen over the years who struggled to get funding?

 

...and seriously, retail jobs from a company that would probably come here anyway? They can't even hide behind calling it a 'safe' choice. This is just mindless and clueless on the part of people who should be focused on high-end jobs that create 6 additional jobs.

 

 

-Just my $0.02  -- What does everyone else think?

 

 

 

 

 

--Brenda

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Peter <[address removed]> wrote:

So Hillsborough Count is dangling a carrot in front of Bass Pro Shops.
A $15 Million carrot to get them to open a store in Brandon.

Not for nothing, but couldn't that $15M be put to better use?

Is there really the jobs we want? Chain Retail stores and call centers?

$50,000 grants or loans to 300 start-ups would create 600 REAL jobs immediately!

Nice editorial about it here:
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article1220078.ece

Could you contact your County Commissioner, please?
http://hillsboroughcounty.org/bocc/

Original article:
http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2012/mar/14/memeto1-county-casts-15m-to-lure-bass-pro-ar-368910/

Thanks!

Peter



--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
http://www.meetup.com/BarCampTampaBay/
This message was sent by Peter ([address removed]) from Tampa Web Technology Meetup Group.
To learn more about Peter, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/BarCampTampaBay/members/3279406/
Set my mailing list to email me

As they are sent
http://www.meetup.com/BarCampTampaBay/list_prefs/?pref=1

In one daily email
http://www.meetup.com/BarCampTampaBay/list_prefs/?pref=2

Don't send me mailing list messages
http://www.meetup.com/BarCampTampaBay/list_prefs/?pref=0
Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]



 

--
Brenda Young
Marbay Group
[masked]
Twitter: 4byoung
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/4byoung
Ask me about HealthCamp Florida





--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Brenda Young ([address removed]) from Tampa Web Technology Meetup Group.
To learn more about Brenda Young, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]

 





--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Mike B.. ([address removed]) from Tampa Web Technology Meetup Group.
To learn more about Mike B.., visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]





--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Peter Sysko ([address removed]) from Tampa Web Technology Meetup Group.
To learn more about Peter Sysko, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]





--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Brian French ([address removed]) from Tampa Web Technology Meetup Group.
To learn more about Brian French, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]



Linda Olson
Founder/Executive Director, Tampa Bay WaVE
[address removed] 
866-WAVE-066