Bryan,

You bring up again even more good points. One of the things that has held the classes back is the fact that I am a coder, not a designer. To really get into the meat of web design classes, folks have to know more than html tags and css positioning. I personally have enough of a history from working in a print shop to recognize good design elements. But I've never been responsible for design myself. As well I've never forced myself to use extensively apps like Photoshop, Gimp, Inkscape, Adobe Illustrator or other tools of the design masters. So that too has hindered us. The number of professionals with graphic design experience (not just coding) that have the time to assist us with classes has been very limited.

So over the past few weeks I've finally forced myself to sit down and start to learn, not just graphic design applications, but technique. Of course I have a long way to go. But it's one more piece to the puzzle that I can offer when I am teaching folks. Really, the last missing piece. 

I agree with you that learning on live, real working sites, is a great way to move forward. Whether folks can learn from paid work, or more likely contribute to free and open source applications, hands on is simply hands down, the best way to learn. And it's not enough to learn how to code HTML/CSS and Javascript, and MySQL and PHP. Folks that really want to do this, whether for their own personal sites of any weight, their own business, a client, or as an employee need to dig deep into things like Versioning, Backups, Security, Server Settings, Command Line and Secure Shell interaction, Email setups, Mashups, Bash Scripting, Python, Stored Procedures, Ruby and other skills. In short, one must be willing to study long, and hard to REALLY learn a wide range of tools. 

And thus yet another reason the classes end up being a long time coming sometimes, because I really hate when I feel like I am short changing someone because yes they need to know HTML, but backups and versioning and other such things are as important, and frankly more important. Having the greatest design in the world is pointless if it gets deleted, or cracked, and you don't have your backups. 

Ultimately your idea of a collaboration amongst all those learning (and those of us with more experience, but still learning as well) is really what we're trying to achieve with the meetup. Frankly, if we could get several of us together, that are already skilled, but in different areas, for a meeting, we could lay out some serious plans along the lines of what you're suggesting. 

If anyone has any interest, please ring me at[masked]. Maybe we can put our heads together and come up with some good ideas.

Kind Regards,
Aoirthoir

--- On Thu, 7/29/10, bryan <[address removed]> wrote:

> From: bryan <[address removed]>
> Subject: Re: [webdesign-396] Requests for classes and what's going on.
> To: [address removed]
> Date: Thursday, July 29, 2010, 9:42 PM
> 
> 
>  
>  
> 
> i can get us accounts. i think we can, all willing
> participants, create a 
> productive work flow. which in fact would be a very
> important element for any 
> design/development project. even the experts can learn from
> each other on that 
> one.
> ?
> in my opinion, to create?a fully functional
> dynamic site we would need 
> designers (graphics, illustrations, images, typography,
> html, 
> css),?architects (layout, usability, functionality),
> developers 
> (javascript, jquery, databases, languages). in addition, we
> can as a team create 
> other?deliverables like add on widgets,?webcopy,
> seo, and a?lot 
> more.
> ?
> getting accounts is not the sticking point. producing
> visually captivating, 
> relevant, usable, and functional websites is the challenge.
> i?think this is 
> a great opportunity for professionals to share and for
> beginners to develop or 
> sharpen their skill sets.?i'm in!
> ?
> 
> In a message dated 7/29/2010 4:10:27 P.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time, 
> [address removed] writes:
> On Thu, 
>   Jul 29, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Aoirthoir An 
>   Broc
> <[address removed]> wrote:
> > All good 
>   ideas. In fact we were proposing working on an HTML5 CMS.
> There are lots of 
>   folks that >would like to learn and learn with hands
> on experience. Trying 
>   to do so and getting paid for it though is >a job. In
> order to do so we 
>   need people that want to have sites and want to pay us to
> do them. I'm not 
>   >exactly salesman of the year though so we're left
> with figuring things out 
>   on our own. :D
> 
> 
> I forgot to say, the paid job is good as long 
>   everybody learns all the material.
> 
> Again, for getting jobs try craigs 
>   list.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message
> will 
>   be sent to everyone on this mailing list 
>   ([address removed])
> https://www.meetup...­
> This 
>   message was sent by Doug ([address removed]) from
> Cleveland Web Design and 
>   Development Meetup.
> To learn more about Doug, visit his/her member profile: 
>  
> https://www.meetup...­
> To 
>   unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings,
> click here: 
>  
> https://www.meetup...­
> Meetup, 
>   PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | 
>   [address removed]
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY",
> your message will be sent to everyone on
> this mailing list ([address removed])
> 
> This message was sent by bryan ([address removed]) from
> Cleveland
> Web Design and Development Meetup.
> 
> To learn more about bryan, visit his/her member
> profile
> 
> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click
> here
> 
> 
> 
> 		Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked]
> | [address removed]
> 
> 
>