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Church of Azazel proto-congregation, New York City Message Board Rituals and practices of the Church of Azazel › Revised standard ritual format

Revised standard ritual format

Diane
DianeVera
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 582
I recently revised the recommended standard ritual format on my Theistic Satanism website. Specifically I've revised the Greetings to the Princes and the Legions of Hell and the recommended standard ritual closing.

The two main changes I made are these:

1) On my pages for both the Greetings and the closing, there are now drop-down menus to allow selection of (1) the element to be emphasized, (2) which hemisphere you're in (north or south of the Equator), and (3) whether you're doing the ritual alone or as a group. If you then click "Rearrange," the wording of the rest of the page is then automatically adjusted accordingly. (I may eventually add these menus to my pages for other parts of the ritual format too, to make them easier to follow.)

2) The Greetings now consist of two rounds of Greetings: (1) a first round of greetings to the Princes (seen as aspects of Satan) with element-specific wording, without yet calling the Legions, and then (2) separate round of greetings to the Legions as well as to the Princes again. In my personal experience, the two-round version is more focused and raises more energy than the previous one-round version did.

I invite others to try the ritual and to give me their feedback. If you've never used my ritual format before, I would suggest using it in the context of the self-initiation rite on my Theistic Satanism site. To use the ritual format for other purposes, see the Outline of my recommended standard ritual format.
Corbeau de M.
Corbeau_deMarais
Melbourne, AU
Post #: 3
Hi Diane
I've been "on sabbatical" for a while, good to be back.
I appreciate your ongoing work and meditations on the ritual, it's fantastic work.
Speaking as a denizen of the Southern Hemisphere, may I make a couple of observations regarding the whole issue of "deosil/widdershins" and reversing the North and South attributions?
I had researched these issues at some length and tended to find the more "serious" ritualists (Golden Dawn, Thelemic, Aurum Solis) were very adamant that one not reverse the deosil and widdershins directions based on the hemisphere. To quote from one correspondence I had been given permission to publish in a paper I had written:

People who suggest that the are different in the Southern Hemisphere are ignorant of the rules of astronomy. The clockwise direction is due to the movement of the Earth (the “apparent” movement of the Sun) which does not change from hemisphere to hemisphere. The Earth only rotates in one direction; one half of it does not go a different way. Doing circles clockwise is putting yourself in tune with the movement of the Earth, or likewise against it for widdershins, no matter which Hemisphere you are in.

The only thing that possibly changes in the Southern Hemisphere is the attributions of the elements to the directions (North generally being hotter than South in the Southern Hemisphere, for example, and thus seeming to be more akin to Fire). But I would only make these changes if I were a pagan doing very earth-based natural magic in my own back garden. Hermetic Magick is per definition symbolic, so I encourage you to stick with the elemental attributions to the directions too.


There are clearly differences of opinion on all this, but I thought you might appreciate this perspective.

Corbeau de Marais
Diane
DianeVera
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 584
The person you quoted is the one who is clearly ignorant of astronomy, and indeed would seem to be severely lacking in spatial visualization ability.

Imagine a wheel in front of you, spinning clockwise. A person on the other side of that same wheel would see it spinning counterclockwise. The exact same motion can appear to be either clockwise or counterclockwise, depending on where you are relative to it.

Also, regardless of which hemisphere you are in, the "apparent motion of the sun" is opposite to, not the same as, the rotation of the Earth. Thus, in the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move clockwise because the Earth is spinning counterclockwise. On the other hand, in the southern hemisphere, the sun appears to move counterclockwise because the Earth is spinning clockwise.

P.S.: Clarification to the wheel visualization thought experiment above: The wheel should be spinning around an axis that is along your line of sight, so that the wheel itself spins in a plane perpendicular to your line of sight.
Corbeau de M.
Corbeau_deMarais
Melbourne, AU
Post #: 8
The person you quoted is the one who is clearly ignorant of astronomy, and indeed would seem to be severely lacking in spatial visualization ability.

Imagine a wheel in front of you, spinning clockwise. A person on the other side of that same wheel would see it spinning counterclockwise. The exact same motion can appear to be either clockwise or counterclockwise, depending on where you are relative to it.

Also, regardless of which hemisphere you are in, the "apparent motion of the sun" is opposite to, not the same as, the rotation of the Earth. Thus, in the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move clockwise because the Earth is spinning counterclockwise. On the other hand, in the southern hemisphere, the sun appears to move counterclockwise because the Earth is spinning clockwise.

Dear Diane

I don't want you to take offense at someone's perspective on this; you may well be right on some of your points, I don't pretend to a knowledge of these things. For what it's worth, the woman in question is noted for being somewhat accomplished in her field regarding this matter, and she isn't alone in relation to this issue. I simply thought you may be interested in another perspective, granted more prevalent with Hermeticists and ceremonialists than pagans. However, I'm not sure if me debating it is a valuable pursuit given I'm hardly an arbiter and I'm not much concerned one way or the other. I assume the value of "deosil" v "widdershins" relates to symbolic resonance, i.e. clockwise v anti-clockwise in the symbols accrued by the subconscious, so I will always refer back to northern hemisphere symbology anyway. I am merely incidentally gratified that many cite astronomy to reinforce what I have done, and will do, anyway.

I appreciate the points you raise in the second and third paras, but I don't know if they entirely relate to those I was making - and I don't think they relate to the point the authority I cited was making either, though they are clearly valuable.

I will refer back to Crowley on this one (from other posts I have made, I probably don't need to reiterate I consider him not only a pre-eminent occultic, but also satanic, authority) that the great advance made by modern science and magick is that it has risen beyond "perception" of astronomical phenomena - which gave rise to the Judeo/Christian, "Age of Osiris" thinking, which based its moral philosophy on the perception that the sun revolved around the earth. Crowley, as you know, made much of the fact that the Copernican revolution was the genesis of a new age of thinking which understood that the apparent traits of astronomy were entirely wrong. A new spirituality arrived on the coattails of a new science which demonstrated that the perception was entirely unsuited to a more evolved perception of reality. It may well "look" like the sun rises, comes to its fruition, dies and is reborn; but that's actually not the case.

So I grant you, things may indeed "look" like they operate in a certain way. That, however, need have little if anything to do with the reality.

Corbeau
Diane
DianeVera
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 585
I am not so much offended as nonplussed, as if someone were to insist to me that two plus two equals five, or to tell me that "experts" believe that two plus two equals five.

Obviously you should use whatever symbolism works best for you. If someone in the southern hemisphere were to prefer northern hemisphere symbolism on the grounds of "symbolic resonance" because they identify CULTURALLY with the northern hemisphere, that would at least make some sense to me. Or if someone were to prefer a particular direction of rotation simply because it "feels right" to that person, regardless of the actual motion of sun and earth, that would make some sense to me too.

But to justify the use of northern hemisphere symbolism in the southern hemisphere on the supposedly objective grounds of "astronomy" does NOT make sense, at least to someone who has actually studied astronomy (which I studied for a year in college). It also does NOT make sense to claim that clockwise-vs.-counterclockwise is an intrinsic property of a rotation independent of which direction you are viewing it from. To anyone who understands spatial geometry at all, clockwise-vs.-counterclockwise clearly IS dependent on which direction you are viewing the rotation from.

P.S.: Here's a link to a page on Earth-Sun Geometry on a Physical Geography website run by Dr. Michael Pidwirny & Scott Jones University of British Columbia Okanagan.
Corbeau de M.
Corbeau_deMarais
Melbourne, AU
Post #: 11
Of course Diane, I should have said "non-plussed". Perhaps we are just dealing with cultural differences in expression. I'm reminded of some of the jokes about tourists to New York asking locals for directions ...

Anyway, I'm bombarded by apparent experts on all sides being scathing about the level of ignorance of the other side on this issue. Of course you're right to say that should an expert tell you that two plus two equals five you would disregard it. However, it probably pays to remember you do so because you were initially educated to your position by someone more "expert" and you now consider yourself to be the same. So I guess, being fairly ignorant on the issue, that I should simply go with the perspective of those who appear more expert on the matter. As I suggested, it seems I am spoiled for choice with people claiming all measure of academic qualification regarding this point! Thankyou for informing me of your qualifications on the issue, they certainly surpass mine.

And it appears I've not been able to clearly communicate the point I was trying to make, particularly in relation to spatial geometry and the relevance of perception. I'll assume the fault is mine. But as I said, I can't say I'm overly concerned regarding the issue, hopefully though I've been able to raise concerns that for some denizens of the Southern Hemisphere is important. It's good you've been able to put a more scientific slant to the conventional wisdom posited by the wiccan/pagan crew that has not been satisfactory for many "down here."
Diane
DianeVera
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 586
On the question of which direction the Earth rotates, the relevant experts are scientists, not occultists. Apparently there are some occultists out there (such as the one you quoted earlier) who may be very knowledgeable about spiritual experiences but very ignorant about science -- and not even aware of how ignorant they are, presuming to berate others for their alleged ignorance.

To settle this question in your own mind, I would suggest that you try to find someone in your own network of acquaintances who is knowledgeable about astronomy and/or geography. Also, any mathematician can confirm for you that the question of whether a given rotation is clockwise or counterclockwise does indeed depend on where the observer is, relative to the plane of rotation, as on the web page I linked to in the P.S. at the bottom of my previous post.

P.S.: To clarify one point: Regardless of whether you are in the northern or southern hemisphere, the Earth always rotates west to east -- and thus the sun and stars, as seen from the Earth, appear to move east to west. Whether the Earth's west-to-east rotation is "clockwise" or "counterclockwise" depends on which hemisphere you are observing it from.

Further P.S.: Here are some links to some more pages about the Earth's rotation, including how the Earth's rotation affects wind patterns in the northern and southern hemisphere: (1) The Rotation & Revolution of the Earth by Richard Pogge; (2) Consequences of Rotation for Weather (University of Tennessee); and (3) Earth's Rotation in Science Encyclopedia.
Corbeau de M.
Corbeau_deMarais
Melbourne, AU
Post #: 12
Yes, I do of course refer to scientists as the experts, not simply occultists.

The Golden Dawn and OTO people who advised me on this are highly intelligent, but not scientists. The Aurum Solis person (who provided the quote), however, is. Mathematician and physicist, employed as the former, however not - as far as I'm aware - qualified in astronomy. All are astrologers, though of course that in no way necessarily indicates any significant knowledge of astronomy.

Again though, I must say my interest in this relates to perception and symbolism as opposed to science, so I can't say my interest is overwhelming. Nonetheless, thankyou for your thoughts, and the link you provided.
Diane
DianeVera
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 587
The Aurum Solis person (who provided the quote), however, is. Mathematician and physicist

That REALLY surprises me. I would expect any mathematician to realize, at the very least, that the question of whether a given rotation is clockwise or counterclockwise does indeed depend on where the observer is, relative to the plane of rotation.

See also the other linked pages in the "Further P.S." to my previous post which mention various weather-related things that spin counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere but clockwise in the southern hemisphere, or vice versa, as a result of the Earth's rotation.

Please show him/her all the scientific/educational pages I've linked to in this thread and see how s/he responds to them.
Corbeau de M.
Corbeau_deMarais
Melbourne, AU
Post #: 13
Sure. Again, though, I don't think there is likely to be any debate regarding what is apparent. I imagine there would be agreement that clockwise or counter-clockwise is dependent upon the perspective of the observer. I'll pass it on.
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