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Re: [atheists-27] Liberal and Conservative?

From: bruce
Sent on: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 3:35 PM
All taxes are coercive.  If you don't pay them they begin seizing your wages and bank accounts and put you in prison.

The government does a pitifully bad job at "providing" school, roads, food inspections and anything else, and all of it is better done by voluntary association.  There is a huge body of literature on this.

You are an advocate of intelligent design theory.  You don't think a social institution can evolve or be adopted.  You think only a central planner can design and impose it.  You believe in God.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013, Duff Means wrote:
Not all taxes and regulations are coercive. When taxes pay for roads and other infrastructure, and for emergency services, for education and for health care, then I do not find taxes to be inappropriate. When regulations preserve our environment, ensure fair competition and prevent coercion on individuals by corporations and other individuals, I do not find regulations to be inappropriate.

To paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes, "with my taxes, I buy civilization."

I sympathize with the libertarian perspective, but forgive me if I am too cynical to believe that everyone is capable of playing by the rules. Most people aren't pro-freedom: they are pro-themselves.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

That's true in some ways and grossly misapplied politically. I believe that violence is anti life and that coercive taxes and regulations are a form of violence. I won't submit to them. I encourage you to rebel against them too.

On Mar 12,[masked]:54 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
You act like those are the only two possibilities. They're not. And your continued non-extinction depends on our continued non-extinction, whether or not you want to admit it.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

I don't care about "our" extinction. I only care about "my" extinction. Libertarianism respects one of these concerns. Communism another. Care to take a guess?

On Mar 12,[masked]:47 PM, "Chad" <[address removed]> wrote:
who isn't pro-freedom?
In order for anything to improve our whole idea of capitalism needs reworked. We are at critical mass concerning those that have too much and those that have too little. Libertarians are generally in agreement with fewer regulations and restrictions on the free market. This in of itself denies the obvious failures of our whole system. Consumerism as generated by out of control capitalism is responsible for destroying our economy, environment, as the well as having much to do with the horrid policies coming out of DC. Something else needs to tried. Our extinction looms while we squabble over property rights and the free market.

Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Given that definition, I would challenge your point that most non-religious people are pro big government. I think most non-religious people are anti GOP because of the religious wing nuts who tend to reside in that party. When it comes to what most people really think, I think most people are pro-freedom and anti-coercion (ie libertarian).

On Mar 12,[masked]:34 AM, "Don Wharton" <[address removed]> wrote:

Zach asked: what did I mean by liberal and conservative? Obviously this is largely just the two increasing separated ends of a political spectrum. The liberals see value in taxation for investment in the common good. Conservatives will see some value in doing that but at a much reduced level. Liberals will see regulatory action as legitimately defining actions that will benefit the common good. Conservatives again not so much. They think the free market will best find the common good via the unrestricted invisible hand of the markets.


Libertarians in general don't much like this political theory for good reason. They support liberalism on social issues but tend to the conservative side on fiscal issues. A theory that properly accounts for modern libertar

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