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The Burnsville Socrates Cafe Message Board The Burnsville Socrates Cafe Discussion Forum › 12/7/10 questions and discussion

12/7/10 questions and discussion

Jon A.
thisbus
Group Organizer
Saint Paul, MN
<p>1. How might we find the self?

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</p><p>2. Should we/how should we update our educational system?

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</p><p>3. How do we really know somebody?

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</p><p>4. What's the problem?

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</p><p>5. Why is it that everybody understands nothing better than anything else?

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</p><p>6. Should there be a national I.D. card?

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</p><p>===================­=============

</p><p>

</p><p>And the winner is Steven's "5. Who gets to keep secrets?"

</p><p>

</p><p>Steve - parents keep secrets from their kids

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</p><p>Shannon - why are secrets good?

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</p><p>Steve - product design protection, moral development of kids, government : self-defense/dangerous weaponry (if the possessor of the weaponry is mature -- like us?).

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</p><p>John - patents are legal secrets, and to avoid unnecessarily harming someone (a past mistake) and to not libel, unless there's a good reason for such a revelation.

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</p><p>Steve - free speech vs. privacy, we seek a balance

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</p><p>Larry - the sex lives of politicians should be left secret, in general.

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</p><p>Jim - what's really at issue? life is competitive. Winning requires privacy. We're not perfect enough to deny privacy (our imperfections require us to be accommodating of flaws/willing to keep secrets). Between individuals it's the same. It's wrong when the individual behaves in such a way as to deny privacy. Legally we have the right to not incriminate ourselves.

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</p><p>Dick - I kept secret my pal's smoking when we were kids. We managed it by not writing it down or telling any 3rd parties.No paper trail, no "outsider" knowledge.

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</p><p>Shannon - that's attorney client privilege. If a lawyer knows, he must behave in specific ways in court to avoid becoming an accessory to a lie. 1. secrets seem to relate to control of information and power in relationships of all kinds 2. politician's sex lives: sometimes it's irrelevant but at other times it's not. It always affects community building. it's a balancing act with top importance placed on successfully building community.

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</p><p>Larry - Wikileaks: how did a lowly private in the military get access to all those secret cables? it was too much info for that level to have access to.

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</p><p>David -1. in sport, cheating is common-- this is human nature. 2. we're tribal, we conceal our bad apples within our tribes and justify all kinds of secrecy for the defense of our tribe's individuals.

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</p><p>Steve - "coming clean" can really effectively deflate the harms of any given secret. Continuing secrecy via lies can easily increase the pain of the same secrets.

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</p><p>Jon - it seems we've clearly answered Steve's initial question: everyone gets to keep secrets!!

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</p><p>Steve - in reference to the informant to do with the cigarette industry's harmful actions to do with cigarette production/advertising. It cost him dearly, or could have, but he apparently saw a greater good at stake.

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</p><p>Jon- what happened to make that individual come clean when generations of people just like him refused to do the same before?

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</p><p>John - referring to that private's ability to send those cables to WikiLeaks, post 9/11 may have had to do with his access to info. (a result of our nation's need to "connect the dots" better) Should a politician's/public figure's secret be revealed in case of hypocrisy? What if they admit they're only human, asking us to do as they say, not as they do?

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</p><p>Shannon - it comes down to why they are responding this. What good reason for lying could there be?

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</p><p>Jim - if I'm gay and believe I will go to hell I can tell others this (even if I'm leaving out the reality of my own gayness). Seeing hypocrisy can be used to oppose him by his enemies.

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</p><p>Jon - but what if you say to us 1. "I'm gay" and 2. "I and anyone else who's gay is going to hell because of it"? There's no hypocrisy in you doing that, is there?

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</p><p>David - we may lie to maintain our lives, to get paid (ministers).

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</p><p>Shannon - should I keep secret my dislike for Christian children's books from my niece/nephew when their parents are supporters of that literature?

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</p><p>Jon -the Catholic church made a very decisive and long-standing decision to maintain secrecy whenever it is they first noticed their priests were sometimes abusing children. They decided the institution of the church was of superior importance to the interests of the children harmed by their priests.

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</p><p>David - this speaks to my earlier comments to do with our tribalism

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</p><p>John - priests, some of the faithful believe, do supernatural functions, and these activities are more important than abused kids.

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</p><p>Dick - how are we distinguishing between secrets and lies?

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</p><p>Jim - I'm strict about lying: I don't lie about myself. If I do lie, it's about someone else, sometimes it's ok. Using my judgement all along as to when. If there's no good reason to be honest, I won't be.

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</p><p>Shannon - there are a lot of truth telling scenarios, but skill in the delivery of either truth or deception is the key. Our goal ought always be to improve the situation.

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</p><p>John - it's a question of whether someone has a right to the information

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</p><p>===================­==============

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</p><p>Thanks to all for participating! See ya next week!

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