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8/15/12 questions and discussion

From: Jon A.
Sent on: Sunday, August 19, 2012 5:37 PM
8/15/12 questions and discussion

1-why are we moral?3
2-is imagination more important than knowledge?8
3-can we imagine an objective ideal of heaven?3
4-why don't we embrace the complicated?5
5-what is true consciousness and how do you achieve it?5


is imagination more important than knowledge?

Bob: I recently learned that this was Albert Einstein's opinion. There is a saying: "Knowledge becomes lumber in a week." If you hang on to knowledge it becomes useless. Is it knowledge to know of heaven rather than am imagined one?

Jon: you agree with Albert?

Bob: I'm a sceptic!

Danny: by knowledge do you mean memorized or discovered?

Bob: knowledge is suspect to me

Jamie: thought really relies on imagination to be built into our brain. We learn patterns, then we figure out how they work. From there we get knowledge.  We need imagination to link the patterns together. We want to keep on going forward. We can't figure out the whole picture, we can't get total knowledge. Without language we can't convey knowledge. 

Jon: can we convey imagination without knowledge?

Jamie: shared communication is required.

Art:  patterns. Everything has a language. Intelligence is pattern seeking. The guy who invented Mathematica says computers eventually will only be pattern machines that figure things out. Computer memory wont be needed anymore. 

Lucy: are there different patterns for different languages?

Art: the inventor of Mathematica thinks it's how humans think. Mathematica is a commercial algorithms. 

Mike: an example of these algorithms we see when we're using Google and the website gets the answer before we finish typing our search words.

Art: imagination is the ability to see relations between patterns.

Jamie: then would more intelligent people see patterns better and quiker?

Art: I don't know exactly what intelligence is. 
Jon: Socrates famously declared that all he knew was that he knew nothing.

Bob: the more one knows the more one doesn't know.

Lucy: we're talking about the difference between experiential and rote knowledge. The context is so important. I was bored today and a co-worker told me to use my imagination! For the task at hand at that moment that just wasn't possible. Unstructured learning: I get ideas all the time; we can feed imagination and knowledge. It's not black and white

Bob: what if one has knowledge without imagination? It's like having all the ingredients for soup without knowing how to make soup/put those ingredients together.

Jamie: how might emotion play into this?

Lucy: I can try to draw emotions from everything I do. I've talked here before about learning from pain. 

Mike: lately I've been taken with the Mars landing and the Olympic ceremonies. I marvel at how they can put it together. For the Mars trip, someone had to imagine it before it could be accomplished. A one two punch: imagination and knowledge. Knowledge has to be available .. Mencken, the famous writer wrote 7 days a week! Someone asked him  how he did it. He said it's simple: just put a sheet of paper in a typewriter and wait until the tiny drops of blood appear on your forehead!

Bob: I watched an interview of two writers on talk show once where they admitted that sometimes their best writing happens when they feel crummy.

Eric: imagination sometimes gets a bad rap. A certain shame. Impractical, head in the clouds. It's not necessarily reasonable. Knowledge can be dangerous when one feels they are certain. What if you really don't know?. A girlfriend of mine once said "I know what I'm saying." She knew what was best. Getting stuck on certainty can cause real pain. Creativity ca help us not get stuck in our ideas. We could encorge more imagination. 

Ben: knowledge rote generates for us a track record, even though it doesn't necessarily lead anywhere new. If imagination is valuable it's for that: going somewhere new.

Bob: people's attachments to knowledge (certainty) are about fear of losing their worlds. 

Eric: knowledge is power but imagination is left out unfortunately

Danny: domestication despises creativity. No one owns knowledge but imagination we do own. Creativity counters the domestication effort. 

Bob: is domestication the same as status quo?

Danny: yes

Ben: I heard of a group of Chinese students who were very good at memorizing but had trouble talking about what their knowledge means.

Matt: I've been reading about fringe science (the inventor Tesla). I've been questioning the things we take for granted. Taking second looks at new ways of doing things is often not useful to capitalism. In 1943 Tesla ran a electric car without batteries for several days. What else is out there that we're missing that would be of help? Tesla and Einstein fed off of previous knowledge as they imagined new things. Music is never objective. It's always taken from a brain that's been influenced in a unique way. The subconscious is a crazy machine!

Danny: more things exist in the imagination than in the world of knowledge. Consciousness is part of the universal will. If I imagine it, it exists in the universe. Knowledge is limited. But imagination is infinite. Imagination inspires knowledge. Empirical vs. irrational.

Lucy: some occupations are proscribed. There are some people who know how things work but not why they work. There are things for which I would know the "how" for but not the "why ." When we try to understand how things work we must use our imaginations. 

Matt: something that bothers me is the gap between architects and builders. Frank Lloyd Wright made beautiful structures but unfortunately some of them have suffered from not being structurally sound. This happened because he never built them himself.

Lucy: I still believe there are "7 kinds of intelligence." 

Bob: empathy takes imagination

Lucy: empathy is needed to overcome one's certainty and connect with others. When I studied writing in college I had a teacher who said "every word has been used." What we do when creative is re=arranging the words to make it new.

Art: in Germany the architects start out as laborers.. 

Ben: imagination with knowledge can err more likely due to certainties that aren't tested/proven.

Art: I've imagined a lot of things and there are times when additional knowledge is needed. Capitalism is for the people with the information and who are unwilling to learn more. They suppress imagination to keep from losing the advantage. This may be unavoidable for our species.

Lucy: is capitalism a fault?

Art: it's the way we do things.

Danny: pure capitalism is not possible. 

Bob: capitalism communism evolution are products of imagination and one can feel personally attached to what they've imagined.

Art: that's an ego thing. 

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