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Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

From: Marc G.
Sent on: Monday, August 13, 2012 7:52 AM
On reflection, I need to expand on my initial response given the true topic of this discussion thread.

The fact that what you said is boring nonsense is obvious to anybody who knows anything about Rand, a group to which you obviously do not belong (and clearly has no interest in finding out; even if Michael doesn't want to go to a bookstore to look up page 119, he had plenty of time to find the relevant material on the Libertarian Party web site, a task which should have taken him about thirty seconds). The more relevant issues, however, are:

1 why you persist in posing here?
2. Why you continue to use needlessly hostile language?

Actually, these are probably meaningless questions from your point of view -- nothing you have said suggests the possibility of a thoughtful response.

But for the rest of those following this thread, my question is why do Objecitivst groups, publications, etc. tolerate the presence of such people and such dialogue.

While people like Michael and David are free to think and say what they want, in my opinion, the Objectivist community needs to do more to call them out. Objectivists and collectivists disagree on many vital issues, but one in which there ought to be common ground is that the Michale Olsen's of the world speak for nobody but themselves. A believe that a lot of the negativity that Rand and other Objectivists encountered and still encounter is generated, not by bona fide Objectivism, but by hangers-on like Michael.

Just look at the world around us. Look at the way capitalism and communism-socialism have evolved in recent decades. The more people focus on the merits of the systems, that which they actually deliver to humanity, collectivism finds itself pushed increasingly toward irrelevance. They can't win on the merits. The only way collectivists can win is by getting the world to look away from what's really vital in each system and to look instead at the repulsive rantings of objectivst-impersonators like Michael and David. It's people like Michael and David that keep collectivism breathing.



From: Michael Olsen <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, August 13,[masked]:21 AM
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

K, I'm seriously just fucking with u, Marc. Your death wouldn't bring me any pleasure (unless it were a competitive death match--of course I'd win, but the joy would come from the cheers of the spectating mob). Ok, p119 if I care to throw you a bone, just to see you grovel for more, addresses the primacy of all rights in the individual. To jump to my first and last conclusion I'll assume that you imply by my living within the delineation of the "people's" state of NY that I have entered contract with the "people's" law of said state and I thereby abnegate my (individual) right(s) to some-or-every extent, and that I must flee all arbitrarily defined "people's" boundaries until at last discovering my own little piece of land (not withstanding any other aboriginal claims, or future statist land grabs) which I should/shall therein promptly declare Michaelandia, thereby effecting my own arbitrarily define state in perpetui. If you don't see the absurdity of your second-hand nationalistic non-idea, I'm grateful to know that your guilt ridden mind is a sad product of an antique and soon to be homeless minority. Namaste.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 10:49 PM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:

"please define in 5 words or less the proper use of force."

1. Virtue
2. of
3. Selfishness
4. page
5. 119



From: Michael Olsen <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sunday, August 12,[masked]:23 PM
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

"Objectivism is a great philosophy, but it's hard to defend it when it's weighed down by irrelevant stupidities nailed to its coat-tails by loudmouth phonies."

If you are in fact a "true-objective pursuer-ist" or a bonafide "liberty-arian does-it'er" then please define in 5 words or less the proper use of force.

Be comforted that if you fail, I shall subsidize your ignorance with my own brilliant axiomatic formula ;)



Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 8:25 PM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:


Yes,  David, I definitely have a mind and can speak for myself. Indeed, those who attended the most recent Ayn Rand meetup in New York City know I'm quite willing to take and explain unconventional stands on Objectivst issues.

But the issue here involves nothing like that. The principal is clear-cut and firmly established in Objectivism. There is nothing at all obscure about it. The page reference I gave you is not, by any means, the only place where the material can be found. In fact, it was well discussed as a foundation for ideas put forth in one of the feature articles in the current issue of "The Objective Standard." And considering how obvious it is that you are not at all interested in Ayn Rand or Objectivism, I'll throw you another bone: The principals are also referred to on the Libertarian Party web site!

So there really is no need for me to waste time spelling it out. Notice that my refusal to offer anything other than a cite to Rand is causing no real consternation among others who are following this discussion (who likely know exactyl what I'm talking about even if they are unable to pinpoint, off the top of their heads, to page 119 of Virtue of Selfishness), except for Michael, whose intellectual prowess seems limited to such offerings as "eat shit and die" and "suck on a tailpipe." (Aren't you proud to attract such high-quality support!) 

In case you haven't noticed, this discussion is not, actually, about proper use of force. It's about whether you, who cite libertarianism and objectivism and lead a libertarian meetup are a bona fide liberatrian or objectivist, or a loudmouth phony who knows nothing about either. And every post you make serves as one more item of evidence in support of the latter.

The reason I've been pursuing this is because it is relevant to the initial topic of this thread, Ayn Rand's niceness or lack thereof, and the direction in which the thread moved, to wit, to the general tone that surrounds discussions of objectivism.

We've heard much about the extreme stridency on both sides and a bit of chicken-and-egg which-caused-which give and take. But there's also the factor of internal sabotage (friendly fire?) in the from of whackos on the right who hide under the objectivist banner to propagate personal and outrageous nonsense having nothing at all to do with objectivism. It hurts Objectivism by infusing it with a taint of stupidity (leftists can't be expected to know that these speakers are imputing to objectivism concepts that true objectivists regard as nonsense) and by inflaming the debate insofar as it encourages leftists and even centrists to amp up the hostility. Objectivism is a great philosophy, but it's hard to defend it when it's weighed down by irrelevant stupidities nailed to its coat-tails by loudmouth phonies.



From: David <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sunday, August 12,[masked]:17 PM
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

Do you have a mind? Can you not speak for yourself? I assume you have a self don't you?

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:

What part of Virtue of Selfishness page 119 didn't you understand?

David <[address removed]> wrote:

I never got an answer as to why you get to initiate force. So far, alI I heard is "because we share the same country". 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 6:58 AM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:

"I was forced into the USA at the behest o my mother contractions."

As you should (but may not) know from "We the Living," Kira did not want to stay in Bolshevik Russia. When she and Leo tried to leave, they were turned back at gunpoint. If, on the other hand, you try to leave the U.S., your biggest challenge will probably be the price of liquor at the duty-free shop (or, depending on where you live, traffic jams on the way to the airport). So if you are unhappy in the USA, you are free to go. If you choose to stay, then that choice is yours, so leave your mother out of it.

"eat shit and die."

"suck a tail pipe you base communist"

More rational thought from a bully who thinks abusive language can cover up ignorance re: Objectivism.


From: Michael Olsen <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sunday, August 12,[masked]:45 AM
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] Some say Ayn Rand was not so "nice": That is out of context

Marc, eat shit and die.
"For starters, nobody forces you to live in civilized society..." Unlike you, supreme shit chugger, I was forced into the USA at the behest o my mother contractions. This is a forum & group of thinkers. I suggest you stick to YouTube trolling.
Ps. Die. Please. Fast. No jokes, suck a tail pipe you base communist ;)

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:56 AM, Marc Gerstein <[address removed]> wrote:

> For starters, nobody forces you to live in civilized society



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