{"id":8753,"date":"2021-12-07T06:30:00","date_gmt":"2021-12-07T11:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/?p=8753"},"modified":"2021-12-13T13:43:18","modified_gmt":"2021-12-13T18:43:18","slug":"episode-25-how-to-see-yourself-as-a-leader","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/episode-25-how-to-see-yourself-as-a-leader\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 25: How to See Yourself as a Leader"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>From a young age, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.carriemelissajones.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><u>Carrie Melissa Jones<\/u><\/a>&nbsp;has benefitted from the support of a strong community. By joining online music forums and chat rooms as a teen, Carrie was able to spark connections with new people, find her voice, and flourish into a leader. Today, Carrie is an author and the leader of a community for other community leaders. Hear her advice on hosting meaningful events and finding the people who will help you thrive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-21-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Spotify Embed: How to See Yourself as a Leader\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/6eEXOs66AmmRlY12FuwwHf?si=HrSciGinSNKnyIu8O_6KWQ&#038;utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Ranked as one of the top <a href=\"https:\/\/blog.feedspot.com\/ceo_podcasts\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">25 CEO podcasts on Feedspot<\/a>, Keep Connected with Meetup CEO David Siegel is a podcast about the power of community. For more details on other episodes, visit Keep Connected on the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/category\/keep-connected-podcast\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Meetup Community Matters blog<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We hope you\u2019ll keep connected with us. Drop us a line at podcast@meetup.com. If you like the podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/podcast\/id1545712240\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Learn more about Keep Connected host David Siegel\u2019s experience as a leader and decision maker in his book, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.decideandconquerbook.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><em>Decide &amp; Conquer<\/em><\/a>. Pre-order your copy today!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-how-to-see-yourself-as-a-leader-with-carrie-melissa-jones\">How To See Yourself As A Leader With Carrie Melissa Jones<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>In this episode, we are talking to <\/b><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.carriemelissajones.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong><u><b>Carrie Melissa Jones<\/b><\/u><\/strong><\/a><strong><b>. She\u2019s an author, entrepreneur, community expert and most importantly, a special person. One of the things you\u2019ll hear a lot about is her focus on quality over quantity. Bigger isn\u2019t necessarily better so read and you\u2019re going to learn why she\u2019s such a special person.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center\">&#8212;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Welcome, <\/b><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.carriemelissajones.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong><u><b>Carrie Melissa Jones<\/b><\/u><\/strong><\/a><strong><b>.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thank you for having me. I\u2019m so excited to be talking with you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>We\u2019re excited too. Carrie is the author of <\/b><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.buildingbrandcommunities.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong><em><u><b><i>Building Brand Communities<\/i><\/b><\/u><\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><b>, the co-author of <\/b><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Art-Community-Seven-Principles-Belonging\/dp\/1626568413\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong><em><u><b><i>The Art of Community<\/i><\/b><\/u><\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><b>&nbsp;and the founding partner of <\/b><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/cmxhub.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong><u><b>CMX<\/b><\/u><\/strong><\/a><strong><b>, the largest community conference. You notice the word community appears here quite a few times because she is Ms. Community and our readers are going to find out why. Let\u2019s start with the why. Behind every community leader is a story about why community is something that became your passion clearly at an early age. Tell us about the why.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I got into this, not as a profession at all, which is how most people get into community building.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Those are the best professions, by the way. When you\u2019re doing it as a passion and then it becomes the profession<\/b><\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I was an extremely awkward kid and teenager. I was very shy to the point where like now, things would not come out of my mouth. My voice would not come out of my mouth when I was trying to speak or I would raise my hand in class and I would be shaking. I was very closed off and quiet. I didn\u2019t think it would ever be any different. I thought I would always be that way but luckily, I grew up in Silicon Valley in the 1990s. My dad worked in tech in public relations and as a journalist. He got early computers so he gave me my own computer at a young age, which could have gone wrong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>That\u2019s the dream of every introvert, an early computer. That way, I could talk to a screen and not to people.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Exactly but I didn\u2019t fully realize that. I thought it was for games. Then, I discovered early on chat rooms and forums. For me, it was music forums that broke through how I met people online. I met hundreds of other teenagers online through that time and for the first time in my life, I felt like I could be myself. I could share who I was. I could be extroverted digitally and experiment with who I was and who I wanted to become. During that time, I met so many people. We became pen pals. We would give each other gifts in the mail and call each other.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>From how far away? Was it around the world or just the United States?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I remember having one pen pal in the Philippines and my parents were like, \u201cWhy are you getting letters from the Philippines?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cDon\u2019t worry about it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Did you take on a different personality as an online person? Were you still awkward teenager Carrie or were you superwoman Carrie?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote\"><p>Who you are affects the community you build.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I think I was more myself than I had ever been in a group before socially. One-on-one, I was always very quirky, a nerd and a major bookworm. I couldn\u2019t express that to other people. I was more of myself and at the same time, as a teenager, you\u2019re questioning, \u201cWho am I? What am I here for?\u201d I got to go into one forum and express one part of myself and then express another part of myself in other areas. It was a time when I needed great experimentation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Through that time, I didn\u2019t realize it. I still couldn\u2019t bring these skills and bring myself into my day-to-day offline world but I had some very close friends and one of them called me one night. I remember she was crying on the phone and said, \u201cCan you come outside? I\u2019m outside your house,\u201d so I came outside. I was probably about fifteen. Normally, I would sit there and listen to her while she told me what was going on but she asked me how I was doing and for the first time in my life, I said, \u201cI\u2019m not okay.\u201d I was going through a lot of personal family tragedies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I remember thinking at the time, \u201cI know how to do this. I know how to be open. I just haven\u2019t done it with anyone face-to-face before and I\u2019m going to do it right now.\u201d We still talk about that night many years later, about how important that night was for our friendship. We became sisters at that point. She\u2019s still my very best friend. I think for me, the real passion comes from this idea that I was able to be myself in some ways and perform the ideal version of myself and then I was able to take that as a skill that I practiced and then bring it into the real world. For me, that has always been what\u2019s powerful about online communities. It gave me practice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>How did you bridge that gap from being that online persona of who you are? You weren\u2019t being someone else. You were being more yourself than when you were in person to that offline. Was it baby steps? You worked hard and it was uncomfortable but every single time you did, it became a little bit less comfortable or it didn\u2019t become less comfortable. It was always uncomfortable or did it happen quickly? What were the words that you had to say to yourself to motivate you to become that person that you wanted to be in person, which you are online?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I don\u2019t think I did it alone. I think that night was the first step where I said, \u201cI\u2019m going to bring this part of me to the world.\u201d I didn\u2019t do it alone because my best friend, I remember a year later or so, said, \u201cYou should get involved in student government.\u201d I was like, \u201cNo way. I cannot do that.\u201d I had to give a talk to a group of 30 people in a crowded, hot room. I was shaking and I was scared the entire time. I didn\u2019t get the position but I got good feedback and I had someone rooting for me. The next year, she said, \u201cGo for it again,\u201d so I did and then I got a position the next year. Always having people who believed in me to show me opportunities opened the door for me and kept pushing me to push myself but I could not have done that alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>You got something more than that position the first time. You did, which was the confidence to be able to maybe fail, do it again and succeed. One of the things that you write and then you\u2019ve talked about is how one\u2019s personality as a community leader or in Meetup parlance, as a Meetup organizer, influences the type of community that you build. Talk a little bit about how an organizer can best personify themselves in their community or what their approach to their community should be based on their understanding of themselves.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What I mean when I say, who you are affected the community that you build, is that if you have anything that is unresolved, unhealed trauma, a sense of scarcity or a sense of confidence. On the other hand, all of that is going to translate to the community that you build in big and small ways. Sometimes, you can get around it over the short-term but what you see is that over time, if you have these unresolved issues, lack of confidence or if you\u2019re nervous all the time, you\u2019ll see that reflected in a turnover, of people not returning and you don\u2019t need a lot of people to return. You need a very small group of people to return over time to start building a snowball of a community.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s what I mean. The greatest advice I can give to anyone is if you are lucky enough to be able to afford it, find a good therapist as a community builder because all my stuff around, \u201cI\u2019m invisible. I\u2019m not popular. No one cares about what I have to say,\u201d all of that came out in my work and it will continue to come out if you don\u2019t resolve it. That will really impede how much of an impact you can have. That\u2019s key. It\u2019s to be self-aware in everything that you\u2019re doing and it\u2019s easier said than done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>That advice makes me think of two things. The first is about how when you start a company and you\u2019re an entrepreneur. That company will have the DNA of the founder no matter what and it could be many years since a founder can leave. Take Steve Jobs, an obvious example with Apple and the culture of innovation or take Microsoft\u2019s focus on research. The founder leaves this deep DNA imprint and whether you\u2019re an entrepreneur as an organizer or a community leader of a company and they\u2019re all correlated, it leaves the same thing. The best thing is self-awareness in life in general.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>The other thing I was thinking about and tell me if you agree or disagree is another piece of advice I would probably give. It\u2019s to know yourself and, therefore, find people who complement your skillsets. If you maybe lack some skills or confidence, find someone who is particularly more salesy or more outgoing. If you\u2019re more of an outgoing person, find someone who\u2019s more organized or able to handle operations, etc., as part of community organizing.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>What did you do? What did you find for yourself when you were organizing your first communities? Knowing your background and your stuff, how did you find that manifesting itself in challenges that you may be had in the beginning? What things did you do originally in some of the first communities that you started?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I will say that a lot of this didn\u2019t necessarily come out so much in the hobby communities that I built but because I was being judged by my organization, that\u2019s when it came out for me. For me, it was a sense of being invisible, like what I have to say doesn\u2019t matter. I would launch things quietly or try to keep things intentionally small in a way that wasn\u2019t serving the purpose of the group or not believing in myself. I\u2019m bringing on people or working with people who would try to heal those wounds that I would project onto them like, \u201cYou\u2019re going to see me and you\u2019re going to validate me,\u201d and then get taken advantage of in many situations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image size-full wp-image-8777\"><figure class=\"aligncenter\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"600\" height=\"400\" src=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption1.jpg\" alt=\"KCM 25 Carrie Melissa Jones | Community\" class=\"wp-image-8777\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption1.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption1-473x315.jpg 473w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\" \/><figcaption>Community: If you are lucky enough to afford it, find a good therapist as a community leader.<\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>That affected me for a very long time. Frankly, the only way I\u2019ve been able to come to terms with all of it has been years of therapy. I have a fantastic therapist. It\u2019s therapy and constantly checking myself. I\u2019m constantly asking, \u201cIs this about my ego or is this going to be of service? Why am I doing what I\u2019m doing now?\u201d I have to check myself a lot because sometimes when you get into a state of comparison or whatever else it might be, your work is not what\u2019s bothering you. It is any kind of issues you might have around, like not being popular or whatever baggage you bring.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Over time, I\u2019ve started to cherish the individual relationships that get built in the communities that I build. I\u2019ve run many Meetup groups. I ran one in Seattle several years back. It was a sewing Meetup event. I rented out a space at a WeWork and I invite people to this Meetup group. At the first event, only one person showed up, this one woman. I was like, \u201cI could be very sad now that only one person showed up,\u201d but instead, I thought, \u201cI have this opportunity to talk to this one woman.\u201d She had been sewing for 40 years and had her own fashion line. We sat down and ate dinner together and sewed together. The next time, we had three people and every time I do anything now, I think, \u201cHow can I make this experience great for one person, three people or however many people are there?\u201d It\u2019s not about the bigness. It\u2019s always about the depth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>You had on so many things. I\u2019m going to reiterate a couple of them because I don\u2019t have any great ideas myself. All I could do was reiterate the smart things that you said. The first is questioning your motivations. It\u2019s interesting because I think most people\u2019s motivations, unfortunately, tend to be ego-driven. Meaning they want their name to be out more. They want to be bigger, more well-known, more powerful or more influential.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Interestingly, your motivation was almost the opposite and that you wanted to not be too well-known, not have too much ego and not have too many people here. Both sides need to overcome those motivations and ask themselves, \u201cWhat\u2019s in the best interest of my job? What\u2019s in the best interest of what I\u2019m trying to accomplish?\u201d I think that\u2019s so awesome. That\u2019s one point.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>The second is around thinking longer-term and not seeing one person showing up or three people showing as much as a building block. It\u2019s a building block because everything starts with a single then a pair and then growth from there. It\u2019s so easy to get caught up with numbers. Frankly, numbers are also disproportionate potentially to value. In fact, we\u2019ve done a lot of studies at Meetup and found that the optimal number of people that are in a Meetup event is 8 to 10 people because of the fact that there could be a depth of relationships that occur when you\u2019re in that, let\u2019s say, even 6 to 10-person type range. Even one-on-one is very valuable but that\u2019s a relationship, not a community.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>I think the world, especially in the United States, in particular, we\u2019re caught up with big. Big cars, big houses, big everything. Bigger is always better. I think in the case of most things in life, bigger is not necessarily better and you have that awareness. I think it\u2019s a great thing. Let\u2019s talk a little bit more about online communities because you\u2019ve done so many online communities.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Although Meetup has always been known for in-person communities, we\u2019ve embraced online as part of the pandemic and there have been over four million online events during the pandemic from zero. How do you make an online event optimally effective? You\u2019ve run so many different types of online groups. What\u2019s some of the secret sauce for online experiences? Also afterward, talk a little bit about how one can effectively transition, if one chooses to do so, to have both online and in-person.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There are a couple of things at play that are universal. One is that there are some major strengths to online gatherings that face-to-face gatherings can never duplicate and we very rarely talk about their advantages. Number one is accessibility. It is far more accessible for people and not only people who are neurodivergent or who have physical needs that are different from the normal or whatever that means. It\u2019s so accessible and also, from a geographic standpoint as well, which is something I\u2019ve heard a lot of organizers tell me. They\u2019re like, \u201cWe opened up our group. We\u2019re no longer Milwaukee-specific,\u201d or, \u201cWe\u2019re no longer San Francisco-specific. Now, anyone can come.\u201d That\u2019s a major advantage so we\u2019re playing toward that universally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The second is the mix of synchronicity and asynchronicity that gathering online allows. You have both the synchronous component of this is where you create the great experience for people and that should depend on what you do depending on how many people are there but then you also have the after the experience of how you will reflect on that event and how you will use that event as a jumping-off point to encourage people to create more relationships afterward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>It\u2019s critical between events.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s so critical and it will often happen in spite of leaders, as people will go and find each other but it should happen because of great leadership. There\u2019s also the capacity that we have to be completely creative with anything that we\u2019re doing. If we\u2019re not happy with the online gatherings that are taking place, no one\u2019s going to come and magically show us the formula. We e have to create the events that we want to attend.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Now, I want you to magically show us the formula.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote\"><p>It\u2019s not about the bigness. It\u2019s about the depth.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In a sense, there is a formula, which is that you need to know what your values are, your purpose of what your community is, also what you\u2019re gathering about and you need to know what constraints you\u2019re under. Sometimes, having a lot of people is a big constraint that you\u2019re under. Having very few people is a constraint that you\u2019re under. Your technology is a constraint. Working within those constraints with the people that you\u2019re gathering with your unique values and purpose, you can create anything that you want to see exist in a world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019ve run workshops with ten people in them where we get together. We do \u201cwould you rather\u201d questions. We do sketching together or solo journaling Meetup events. It\u2019s all kinds of things. We get stuck in a box of thinking like, \u201cThis is the way it needs to go. The agenda needs to be 35 minutes of intros.\u201d Throw all of that out. It\u2019s not serving us. We wouldn\u2019t be in the loneliest era of American history if it were working.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a whiteboard, that\u2019s great. I have gigantic papers and a lot of markers. I let my mind wander and think, \u201cThese are the values.\u201d Let\u2019s say they\u2019re trust, commitment and creativity. Our purpose is to increase equity for women in organizations. I think about like, \u201cWhat are some of the things that someone who cares about those things and has those values would want to do with other people?\u201d I\u2019d start drawing and writing. I\u2019m a terrible drawer I should say but it comes naturally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Values-driven agenda setting. Tell me some of the values that you hold in your communities that you\u2019ve built and be specific about a specific community, which could be alive now or could be not. That\u2019s okay too and how the values directly impact that.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I run a community for community builders with my online courses. My personal values are my company\u2019s values. They are integrity, equity and ingenuity. Everything that I do needs to be in integrity with my other set of values. That\u2019s why values are so important to me. Equity is making sure that those who show up feel heard and seen and ingenuity is that this is something that people haven\u2019t experienced before. That doesn\u2019t mean it has to be completely off the wall. Maybe, the difference is the level of presence everyone has for that event.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Those three values guide everything that I create in my online community and in the events that I run. I think about it with equity. If I\u2019m thinking about relaunching the online course, for instance and rebuilding the community, I\u2019m not going to go by myself into a room and say, \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019m going to launch. Enjoy once it\u2019s launched.\u201d I\u2019m going to take as much insight as I possibly can. I\u2019m going to ask for tough feedback. I\u2019m going to get on the phone with people and tell them like, \u201cWas there ever a time in this experience where you felt like you weren\u2019t seen or didn\u2019t matter whether you participated or not?\u201d That\u2019s how I\u2019m going to approach re-doing everything. I constantly refer to those values. I have a sheet that has the values written out on it and how they map to all the activities we do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>The visual of having those values in front of you all the time is so important in making sure that it\u2019s the anchor for so many of your decisions. We have six core values at Meetup and what we did is we asked each person to take the value that resonates the most with them and put it as a giant tag on their chair. It says, \u201cI\u2019m all about leading with integrity. I\u2019m all about trust and transparency. I\u2019m all about stepping up.\u201d<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>I thought of the idea because, in some organizations, people put their Myers-Briggs, ESTJ or etc. so I was like, \u201cLet people have the value that most resonates for them.\u201d It helps to have it palpable and in front of people so that it serves as a basis for decision-making. What\u2019s the best business-related decision that you\u2019ve ever made in your life? When I say business, I mean non-personal. What\u2019s the best non-personal-related decision that you\u2019ve ever made in your life?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I guess I would say setting boundaries with past colleagues and leaving when those boundaries were not respected.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Without sharing details, can you elaborate a little bit on what boundaries were important for you to set and how did you feel comfortable saying, \u201cThat\u2019s it. Even though each little baby step, maybe only baby steps but there was a line and you passed the line and therefore, I\u2019m no longer comfortable?\u201d<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To be clear, I was not comfortable ever saying I was ready to leave but I did it anyway. For me, my boundaries were about being respected and getting acknowledged for the work that I did. I put a timeline on it. I said, \u201cIf this doesn\u2019t change within six months, I\u2019m going to go.\u201d I went on a very long backpacking trip with my father, my now husband and my brother. That\u2019s when I realized like, \u201cWe\u2019re coming up on six months. How do I feel?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I had forgotten that I\u2019d set this boundary but I was exhausted and was out in the middle of nowhere in the Sierras. I was like, \u201cNothing\u2019s changed. This is where I\u2019m happiest and I need more of this in my life.\u201d I was so stressed out that I was at a friend\u2019s wedding. I was nauseated and vomiting because I was so stressed out running and doing the work that I was doing so I came back and quit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image size-full wp-image-8778\"><figure class=\"aligncenter\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"600\" height=\"400\" src=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption2.jpg\" alt=\"KCM 25 Carrie Melissa Jones | Community\" class=\"wp-image-8778\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption2.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption2-473x315.jpg 473w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\" \/><figcaption>Community: You need to know what your values are. You need to know what the purpose of your community is, what you\u2019re gathering about, and what constraints you\u2019re under.<\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>I want to riff on that for a second, which is the value of artificial deadlines. One could say, \u201cArtificial deadlines are artificial. We don\u2019t like things that are artificial.\u201d In reality, artificial deadlines are what some people call time boxing. It is extremely important in the decision-making processes because what it does is you set a certain period of time and you say, \u201cI\u2019m going to use this time and I\u2019m not going to make a decision but I\u2019m going to reflect on whether or not I should be making a decision.\u201d<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>It reminds me of a process that a startup does that I think is amazing as part of time boxing and setting an artificial deadline. Every single month, they meet as a company and they say, \u201cShould we completely pivot our business model? There is so much sunk cost fallacy out there that I put so much time into something. How could I change my business model?\u201d<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>By forcing that conversation every single month, it leads to smarter decision-making and a willingness to pivot to combat the fact that it\u2019s very oftentimes difficult to pivot. Forcing mechanisms are extremely valuable in decision-making so thank you for sharing that. It\u2019s a great example. I have a book coming out. It\u2019s called <\/b><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Decide-Conquer-Decisions-Break-Leaders\/dp\/140023087X\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong><em><u><b><i>Decide and Conquer<\/i><\/b><\/u><\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><b>. It\u2019s about best practices in decision-making and talking about building a decision-making framework to help people make decisions both during a crisis and not during a crisis.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When does the book come out?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>It\u2019s on pre-order now but it\u2019s coming out on March 8th, 2022. How many communities would you guess that you\u2019ve observed in some way, shape or form? What would you guess? Throw out a number.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hundreds of thousands, maybe. I do research on them. I\u2019ve been studying them myself and I\u2019ve been part of so many.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>That\u2019s incredible. You\u2019ve seen thousands of communities so you have probably seen some organizers that have made some mistakes and you probably have seen some consistency in some of the mistakes that they\u2019ve made. I tend to love learning from my own personal mistakes and I also try to learn but you can\u2019t learn as much from other people\u2019s mistakes, you can still learn a little bit.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Tell me some of the things that you\u2019ve seen as consistent challenges that organizers will go through. You already mentioned one, which is not necessarily understanding themselves well enough in order to see how that reflects on the actual community, which is very thoughtful. Are there any other mistakes that you frequently see in community organizers?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think this goes back to what we talked about earlier. What I see over and over again is a focus on bigness and size over-focusing really deeply on making sure that the individual members feel like they\u2019re part of something that matters. This manifests in a variety of ways. One of which is that people feel like, \u201cWe have a tradition of doing a monthly Meetup event so we always have to do it and we\u2019ll never change it. That\u2019s all we\u2019re going to do.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What you see a lot in online communities is the same stale content going out week after week or people just posting things to post things. I feel like this is so rote and mechanistic. You see that a lot and that\u2019s why I think so many online communities close or die out over time because the leaders are treating them like they didn\u2019t get big enough so, therefore, they don\u2019t matter. There was a fantastic piece. The Wall Street Journal did a whole, \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.wsj.com\/articles\/how-to-fix-social-media-11635526928\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><u>How To Fix Social Media<\/u><\/a>.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Clive Thompson, who\u2019s a writer for WIRED and is an author, wrote about how our issues with social media are speaking about what needs to happen for social media to be fixed. One thing that he writes about is that he spends a lot of time in online communities. He said that in a lot of online communities, you don\u2019t see the toxicity that you see in the larger social media context with exceptions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For the most part, when you go into an online community, there\u2019s a leader there or an organizer who cares. You feel like you\u2019re being welcomed. There are other people who are contributing to something that you care about and you\u2019re not seeing a lot of the negative effects. He says that our focus on bigness is the problem and social media plays on that human desire to be seen by so many people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote\"><p>Social media plays on the human desire to be seen by so many people.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>\u201cI had 250,000 likes. How many did you have? You only had 250,000? I had 400,000.\u201d My teenage daughter and her friends say different things.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of my friends is a dad and he was bragging about his daughter going viral on TikTok. I was like, \u201cWhat are we reinforcing?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Why the obsession with big? When in reality, everyone\u2019s searching for meaning in their life and for real depth of connections, I think. Ultimately, I believe that people care about that. Is it because it\u2019s so measurable and you can\u2019t measure meaning but you can measure the quantity and you can\u2019t measure quality? That\u2019s one reason that I would think. Do you have any other thoughts on that?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think a big part of it is our culture\u2019s obsession with measurement and being able to see our impact. One of the things I say to community builders all the time is that you might not ever see the impact you have and it\u2019s something that my co-author Charles Vogl has impressed on me. It\u2019s that every relationship you build or every action you have has a ripple effect and you don\u2019t frankly have the right to see all of those ripple effects. That\u2019s people\u2019s private business but I can guarantee you that every interaction is a butterfly effect. I think we\u2019re so obsessed with measuring what can be measured and that means that we\u2019re going to optimize toward what\u2019s being measured because that\u2019s what we can see. That hurts us a lot as a species.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>If someone lacks confidence and has an external locus of confidence, maybe they get their confidence and sense of self from outside rather than inside then what better way to get greater confidence by empirical proof that you succeeded? When in reality, getting X number of likes is empirical proof that you succeeded. It\u2019s empirical proof that lots of people said that they might have seen your post when who knows how many people did see it and what they did do with it. Ultimately, things do stem from how you define what\u2019s meaningful for you and whether that\u2019s defined by outside sources or internal sources. That\u2019s what I\u2019ve always perceived.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s beautiful. I could feel that. I was doing research on people running Facebook groups and had come across this Reddit thread from an organizer who said, \u201cI don\u2019t have any friends in real life and I\u2019m lonely but I started a Facebook group where we just name things. Two thousand people have joined it and I feel like my life is worth something.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>There are statistics that I\u2019ve read that 25% of people or 1 in 4 people don\u2019t even have one trusted confidant. Not a parent, not a sibling, not a friend, not one. One in four people don\u2019t have that and that\u2019s terrible. Before I ask you a series of questions, I do have one last question, which is there are probably so many hidden gems out there of communities that are like, \u201cLook at what they\u2019re doing. Look at how they\u2019ve done it.\u201d<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>They could be in super nerdy niche areas and that\u2019s all great. Are there any communities that you want to call out and say, \u201cGive them their props,\u201d and why? No one would have heard of or even necessarily been interested in it but why? One that I think of, to give you a second to think about is the Harley Davidson community.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>They are a number of people that have built deep and meaningful communities because they happen to be Harley Davidson riders. I\u2019m not only not a Harley Davidson rider but I\u2019ve never ridden a motorcycle even in my entire life. It\u2019s probably because my father was a neurologist and told me how it was dangerous to do so. For those people who do decide to ride motorcycles and prior to them making that decision, it\u2019s an incredibly deep community that changes tens of thousands of people\u2019s lives. What community would you call out? It could be a tiny one too, that they\u2019re doing it right.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I love the example of Harley. My parents are both Harley riders. They\u2019re in it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>They got the leather.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>A lot of it. There are a couple of examples. One is an online community that\u2019s not running anymore in the way that I participated in it but the organizer\u2019s name is Tanya Geisler. She does coaching around the impostor complex. She specifically calls it a complex, not a syndrome because it\u2019s not something you can be diagnosed with. She ran this year-long program. 2019 was the last time she ran it and that program changed my life. I credit her in the <em><i>Building Brand Communities<\/i><\/em>&nbsp;because it was one of the very rare times that I\u2019ve seen a leader truly embody and create these connections that have become lifelong connections for so many of us completely digitally and this was before she had to do it digitally. That\u2019s one example that comes to mind. She still runs a free Facebook group so that\u2019s still available to people and she\u2019s fantastic, generally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image size-full wp-image-8779\"><figure class=\"aligncenter\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"600\" height=\"400\" src=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption3.jpg\" alt=\"KCM 25 Carrie Melissa Jones | Community\" class=\"wp-image-8779\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption3.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/25KCMcaption3-473x315.jpg 473w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\" \/><figcaption>Community: It is a usual mistake to focus on bigness and size rather than making sure that the individual members feel like they\u2019re part of something that matters.<\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>The other thing that comes to mind that\u2019s constantly inspiring to me are small groups of people locally who worked together to preserve a park or get a trail made or whatever it might be. I\u2019m working now with Mary Burke. She was a gubernatorial candidate for Wisconsin in 2016 and narrowly lost but in the meantime, she built all these muscles around social and campaign organizing. She now lives outside of Madison, Wisconsin and a bunch of her neighbors got together to preserve some natural landmarks in the area.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>She said that they formed this group where, finally, the neighbors had some reason to talk to each other in this very rural area. When they succeeded in their mission, she said, \u201cI miss that group. I forgot how much I miss it.\u201d I was like, \u201cI think it\u2019s time for a reunion.\u201d Little groups like that take someone being really passionate about organizing people but those are the ones that stick with us and make a huge difference in our physical worlds as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Those are two great examples. Please tell me that Tanya knows the impact that she had on you.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>She\u2019s credited in the back of the book and I sent her a copy. I\u2019m constantly talking about her and to her.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>I\u2019m glad because it\u2019s important. Even though we don\u2019t have a right to necessarily know our impacts, one of the things that I personally try to do is if someone has had a meaningful impact, tell them about it and share that. Writing a book is helpful for that because then you can put the acknowledgments.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can write an email.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Email works too. You don\u2019t have to write a book to express gratitude. We\u2019re going to go through some rapid-fire questions to learn a little more about you and your perspective on things. Here we go. When was the first time you saw yourself as a leader?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The first thing that comes to mind is running my own lemonade stands and cookie sales as a kid and getting all my friends to be part of it with me but I was the ringleader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>If you\u2019re one of those people, thank you because I\u2019ve had so much enjoyable lemonade and cookies from people like you. If you could access a time machine to go anywhere at any time, where are you going?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think I\u2019d like to go to East Tennessee in the 1800s and I specifically say East Tennessee because that\u2019s where my ancestors are from. Also, if you\u2019re looking at the history of East Tennessee, it was Union and not Confederate. The state was split. I would be there and I would learn from my ancestors and how they lived. They lived in Appalachia. How did they do that? I\u2019d like to hear their music too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Name something on your bucket list.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It has changed a lot since the pandemic but prior, it was to travel to Wales, where my farther back ancestors are from and see how they lived. I\u2019m very obsessed with genealogy and how people used to live.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>You know yourself better when you learn more from your ancestors. As we talk about DNA, everyone has DNA in them and we\u2019re inevitably influenced by who came before us. I think it\u2019s a wonderful thing to have that inside of you. Here\u2019s the last question. How do you want to be remembered?<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote\"><p>Every relationship you build, every action you have, has a ripple effect, and you don\u2019t frankly have the right to see all of those ripple effects. That\u2019s people\u2019s private business.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I want to be remembered as someone who, when people were around them, felt safe, welcome and comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>You have probably helped thousands of people feel comfortable. It comes down to who you are and being a person who maybe didn\u2019t necessarily feel that way and wants to make sure that every person in this world doesn\u2019t necessarily feel the way that you had felt at one point in your life. It\u2019s a testament to you for taking something that was a challenge and turning it into a way that you\u2019re helping thousands of people. It\u2019s so enjoyable learning from you and talking to you. Thank you for your time.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thank you so much for all the work you do as well. It\u2019s incredible what you were able to enable people to do with Meetup. I have so much respect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Thank you.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8212;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><b>Thanks for reading. What an exceptional person who took challenges and turned them into her life\u2019s passion. The three biggest takeaways, probably for me, were you are what you do and who you are impacts every single thing that you do. The second is around some of the power that online communities can have for people in terms of accessibility. The third is the impact of values on your community, on your startup and on anything that you do, anchoring everything in core values. Please subscribe to this show because our goals are not to be the number one show in the world but to have as much of an impact on people as we can. That\u2019s the goal. If this had an impact on you then we\u2019d love for you to learn more. Remember, let\u2019s keep connected because life is better together.<\/b><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-important-links\">Important Links:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.carriemelissajones.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><u>Carrie Melissa Jones<\/u><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.buildingbrandcommunities.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em><u><i>Building Brand Communities<\/i><\/u><\/em><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/cmxhub.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><u>CMX<\/u><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Art-Community-Seven-Principles-Belonging\/dp\/1626568413\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em><u><i>The Art of Community<\/i><\/u><\/em><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Decide-Conquer-Decisions-Break-Leaders\/dp\/140023087X\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em><u><i>Decide and Conquer<\/i><\/u><\/em><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.wsj.com\/articles\/how-to-fix-social-media-11635526928\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><u>How To Fix Social Media<\/u><\/a>&nbsp;\u2013 Wall Street Journal Article<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-about-carrie-melissa-jones\">About Carrie Melissa Jones<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignleft\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"150\" height=\"150\" src=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/Carrie-Melissa-Jones-150x150.jpeg\" alt=\"KCM 25 Carrie Melissa Jones | Community\" class=\"wp-image-8780\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019m Carrie Melissa Jones \u2014 a community builder, entrepreneur, and community management consultant.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"sqsrte-large\">I believe in the power of online community. It has helped me through some of the most challenging times in my life. Today I help create community strategies for presidential campaigns, non-profits, small businesses, and the Fortune Global 50.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<div class=\"post-excerpt\"><p>Carrie Melissa Jones is an author and the leader of a community for other community leaders. Hear her advice on hosting meaningful events and finding the people who will help you thrive.<\/p>\n<\/div>","protected":false},"author":45,"featured_media":8774,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[83,1],"tags":[],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.2 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Episode 25: How to See Yourself as a Leader<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Carrie Melissa Jones talks about building strong communities online and being a leader of a community for other community leaders.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/episode-25-how-to-see-yourself-as-a-leader\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Episode 25: How to See Yourself as a Leader\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Carrie Melissa Jones talks about building strong communities online and being a leader of a community for other community leaders.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/episode-25-how-to-see-yourself-as-a-leader\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Meetup Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2021-12-07T11:30:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2021-12-13T18:43:18+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/www.meetup.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/12\/Carrie_Melissa_Jones_Blog_Banner_Single.jpeg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"1095\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"630\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" 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