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Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories

From: ken
Sent on: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 3:29 PM
Todd,

Chris answered the question about communism, at least he got the major
part, about what excess value is.  So you and I don't have to talk to
each other about that anymore.

If I actually called you a name even once, then you should be able to
point to the email where I did that.  I.e., the evidence of it would be
readily available.  Remember evidence?   If not, here's an example:

In the first paragraph of yours below you call me "a communist, or a
socialist."

That is name-calling.  And that's how evidence is provided.  (Since it's
visible on the same screen, doing a copy-n-paste and citing the
date/time/Subject of the email isn't necessary.)

So all the ghettos in the US are just large areas filled with lazy
people?  Huh....  You spend a lot of time hangin' down in 'hood
observing... watching all those lazy people, do you?  How do you know
the guy playing cards doesn't work the night shift?  You follow him
around?  How many of these people do you follow around?   So if you were
in charge, what would you do with those good-for-nothin's?

You've got a penchant for raising a lot of side-issues.  Some might call
this ranting, but I'd say it's just a good way for you to get a lot of
your thinkings out there to everyone... whether they asked for them or not.

On 08/14/[masked]:34 PM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
> Ken, you are so great, you're so smart... Man, you know it all. 
> Dude, you have called me several names. Excess value is when people make
more than is needed and it can either be saved by the capitalist, or
nowadays, exported by the capitalist wherein he will still have value
depending on the fairness fo the trade. Look, how are you such a great
expert on communism, aside from being a communist, or a socialist. I
know that communism doesn't work, because there is no incentive to work
hard. You don't own anything, that is the basis of serfdom. Why is
communism good? Because the lazy guy who can't afford an artificial hip
can force me to pay for it? Beautiful. Let's have a little personal
responsibility here.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ken <[address removed]>
>> Sent: Aug 14,[masked]:55 AM
>> To: [address removed]
>> Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories
>>
>>
>> Nope.  It's apparent you don't know what the term means.  Since it's so
>> pivotal and rudimentary to Marxism, I'd have to stick with my previous
>> assessment that you don't at all understand what communism is.  Whatever
>> you read in Finance apparently isn't much help.
>>
>> Would you like to take another guess?
>>
>>
>> On 08/14/[masked]:28 AM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>> Ok, Ken, I'll give this a shot. I haven't read it in a while, but I know there's Subsistence, Free Market, Command and Mixed Economies. (I was a finance major in college). Let's contrast now:
>>> 1. Subsistence economies- for instance, early southeast asia and several central american countries- these countries have very little excess due to their lack of goods produced- therefore minimal international trade.
>>> 2. Free Market Economies- Free market economies are those that the consumer makes the choice on what is produced, not government subsidies-examples of these would be early 18th century England and pre Roosavelt United States. The excess in free markets would be properly corrected through foreign trade or moving production to something more useful where the country's marginal utility could be a greater benefit to the consumer/producer.
>>> 3. Command Economies- these involve a lot of centralized planning by governments to determine what must be produced and at fixed prices. Examples of these would be Hungary after WWII, the former Soviet Russia, Cuba, etc. These countries that create to provide for all citizens, not based on their output, but rather on the supply the government has predicted. Such systems are bound to horde their excess value to artificially inflate prices and control a citizen's choice.
>>> 4. Mixed Economy- Combination of Command and Free Market Economies- e.g. Current United States, current China, Vietnam and Canada. (Actually most countries nowadays are mixed). These are either a sign of hope for communist countries to get out of the doldrums of starvation, the failing of the voting public of a free market society, or a false glimmer of hope of a Communist dictator to make the people believe they have a choice while being raped by another Mixed economy nation. Their waste is heavy, due to the fact there is still heavy state subsidies, or "Corporate Welfare" as I like to call it. 
>>> Ok, I'm starting to interject a bit of subjectiveness to the explanation, but isn't that what I'm here for:).
>>>
>>> I think everyone has their idea of what capitalism, communism and fascism is... To me, Capitalism with government interference is just as bad as socialism. Fascism is my Grandpa's brother getting mustard gassed to death. Communism is a system that demands everybody listens to the government, for He is the great provider, or at least send them to a camp to be tortured (my father in law) until they fall into line.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ken <[address removed]>
>>>> Sent: Aug 13,[masked]:16 PM
>>>> To: [address removed]
>>>> Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Todd,
>>>>
>>>> You've only confirmed my previous statement.  If the Manifesto is the
>>>> only thing you've read by Marx, you don't know squat.  And the fact that
>>>> you think that having read the Manifesto enlightens you at all about
>>>> what communism is further confirms that you don't know squat about it.
>>>> You might as well say that you understand medicine because you had a
>>>> headache once and took an aspirin.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to show you have even a rudimentary understanding of
>>>> communism, explain and contrast the varying roles of excess value in
>>>> four economic systems.  I'll be waiting.
>>>>
>>>> The US has a heavily graduated income tax...?  Wow, you're smart.  Tell
>>>> us more, Dr. Science.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 08/13/[masked]:18 PM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>>>>­ Ken, I probably know more about Communism than most people, so don't try
>>>>>­ to downtalk my knowledge about different political views. One of the
>>>>>­ first plank of the Communist Manifesto by Marx is a heavily graduated
>>>>>­ income tax. We currently have that. If you haven't read the Manifesto
>>>>>­ yet, I encourage you to do so. Then, you might have more credibility
>>>>>­ when telling people what they do and don't know.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ -----Original Message-----
>>>>>­> From: ken <[address removed]>
>>>>>­> Sent: Aug 13,[masked]:41 AM
>>>>>­> To: [address removed]
>>>>>­> Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> In my (half tongue-in-cheek) suggestion I was not saying that we should
>>>>>­> do away with taxes.  You'd still have to pay taxes, but everyone would
>>>>>­> be offered an annual selection of what their tax money would be spent
>>>>>­> on.  And the separation of church and state would still apply, so you
>>>>>­> couldn't designate your tax money to your particular church or religion
>>>>>­> or to a religious school.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> So I'm not saying that you would pay no taxes.  Relying solely on
>>>>>­> people's generosity doesn't work.  If it did, we wouldn't have all the
>>>>>­> hungry and homeless and people without healthcare that we do now, would we?
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> Also, you don't understand what communism means and so shouldn't use the
>>>>>­> term.
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> On 08/13/[masked]:20 AM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>>>>­>> Ken, I love this email below that you sent. The IRS used to work like that before it was the IRS. It was called private donation and conscience. If we abolished the Communist IRS, our nation would be leaps and bounds ahead with prosperity.
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>­>>> From: ken <[address removed]>
>>>>>­>>> Sent: Aug 12,[masked]:12 AM
>>>>>­>>> To: [address removed]
>>>>>­>>> Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>> I'd love it if taxes worked that way, you only pay for what you want.
>>>>>­>>> Maybe we should have the IRS alter our 1040s so that we can check off
>>>>>­>>> what we will and won't fund.  I'd reduce the military by about 80% first
>>>>>­>>> of all and the spying on Americans by at least that amount.  I'd
>>>>>­>>> increase spending on the CPB, food testing, and education ten-fold.  I'd
>>>>>­>>> allocate enough money to national healthcare to make it free for all
>>>>>­>>> citizens.  Social Security would be increased so that retirees are
>>>>>­>>> guaranteed twice the poverty level.  Less money for highways, much more
>>>>>­>>> for public transportation.  No corporate subsidies, except for
>>>>>­>>> decentralized green energy.  That would be a good start.
>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>>> On 08/12/[masked]:45 AM somebody named Todd Maher wrote:
>>>>>­>>>> You bring up some good points, Maude, once again. I don't want my money
>>>>>­>>>> funding something that I may not want it spent on. It's my right,
>>>>>­>>>> because it's my money. I believe in vouchers, because no one should
>>>>>­>>>> force me to go to school somewhere that I have to fund. I'd rather give
>>>>>­>>>> my money to a reasonable school.
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>>>­>>>>     From: Maude
>>>>>­>>>>     Sent: Aug 12,[masked]:25 AM
>>>>>­>>>>     To: [address removed]
>>>>>­>>>>     Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Science and Theories
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>     Ok, well how's this for you: I own a house. I pay property taxes. I
>>>>>­>>>>     have no children and plan none. My property taxes fund my public
>>>>>­>>>>     school district which I do not use. And if I had children, they
>>>>>­>>>>     wouldn't be using my public school district because it is not known
>>>>>­>>>>     for it's educational superiority. If I lived in the
>>>>>­>>>>     Brecksville/broadvie­w system of the Shaker district, I would gladly
>>>>>­>>>>     have my kids go to public school.
>>>>>­>>>>      
>>>>>­>>>>     So basically, I don't really give a flying fig what is taught in
>>>>>­>>>>     public school personally. I only care because I have to pay to
>>>>>­>>>>     educate children who are not mine who I don't care what their
>>>>>­>>>>     parents would like them to believe versus what is taught in my
>>>>>­>>>>     school district, and who might some day run the damn country. I also
>>>>>­>>>>     have a marginal concern in that my property value can go way up or
>>>>>­>>>>     way down depending on the quality  of the attached public school
>>>>>­>>>>     district-good schools-more people want to live here and buy my
>>>>>­>>>>     house-I can list my house higher.
>>>>>­>>>>      
>>>>>­>>>>     My mom was a high school guidance counselor, and before that, a high
>>>>>­>>>>     school lit. teacher in Cleveland schools. Therefore, she did not
>>>>>­>>>>     send me to public school. She said if we lived in a decent district
>>>>>­>>>>     she would have but she couldn't afford a house in the best school
>>>>>­>>>>     districts in the county so.....I went to private catholic school.
>>>>>­>>>>     The "catholic" part was an aside. The quality of education including
>>>>>­>>>>     the "learning philosophy and the ability to question values" was a
>>>>>­>>>>     primary concern of hers. It just so happened, that economically, it
>>>>>­>>>>     worked out best for her as a single mom to pay the private school
>>>>>­>>>>     tuition and the mortgage on a house in a suburb with a substandard
>>>>>­>>>>     school district. Period.
>>>>>­>>>>      
>>>>>­>>>>     Oh yes and there were no such things as "vouchers:" then, which is a
>>>>>­>>>>     system I vehemently oppose. With all the property tax money going
>>>>>­>>>>     into schools, including property tax money from people who never use
>>>>>­>>>>     the schools (like me), one would think the school district in
>>>>>­>>>>     question could devise some sort of decent schooling.
>>>>>­>>>>      
>>>>>­>>>>     As far as I am concerned, no, I do not think creationism should be
>>>>>­>>>>     taught in the school district which I am paying nearly $4K in
>>>>>­>>>>     property taxes every year to support (we have the highest property
>>>>>­>>>>     taxes in the county in P. Hts. and I do understand that only a
>>>>>­>>>>     portion goes to the schools and believe me-i vote against every
>>>>>­>>>>     school levy! I mean seriously, $4K for a 60-foot frontage is pretty
>>>>>­>>>>     huge.)
>>>>>­>>>>      
>>>>>­>>>>     But on the other hand, if tons of other people paying those same
>>>>>­>>>>     huge property taxes want to send their children (which I have none
>>>>>­>>>>     of) to a school that teaches creationism as part of a science class
>>>>>­>>>>     that includes evolution because it is science, well good for them.
>>>>>­>>>>     If I were poor and had kids, I would send them to my local school
>>>>>­>>>>     and simply have conversations with them about how my views oppose
>>>>>­>>>>     creationism and tell them that they will have to make their own mind
>>>>>­>>>>     up-i'm not into controlling anyone's thought.
>>>>>­>>>>      
>>>>>­>>>>     So, how about "vouchers" or something for all of us property owners
>>>>>­>>>>     who have deemed that the state of the local school district is
>>>>>­>>>>     detrimental to our property value? How about vouchers for all the
>>>>>­>>>>     property owners who pay but never use the attached school district?
>>>>>­>>>>     I mean, fair is fair. I pay and pay for something I have never used
>>>>>­>>>>     and will never use.
>>>>>­>>>>      
>>>>>­>>>>      
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>     --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­------------
>>>>>­>>>>     Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com
>>>>>­>>>>     <http://discover.a...;­.
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>     --
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>>>>>­>>>>     <mailto:[address removed]>)
>>>>>­>>>>     This message was sent by Maude ([address removed]) from The Cleveland
>>>>>­>>>>     Freethinkers.
>>>>>­>>>>     To learn more about Maude, visit his/her member profile
>>>>>­>>>>     <http://humanism.m...;­
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>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>>­>>>> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>>­>>>>[mas­ked]
>>>>>­>>>>[mas­ked]
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>> ____________________­____________________­
>>>>>­>>>> PeoplePC Online
>>>>>­>>>> A better way to Internet
>>>>>­>>>> http://www.people...­
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
>>>>>­>>>>
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>>>>>­>>>> This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The
>>>>>­>>>> Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>>­>>>> To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile
>>>>>­>>>> <http://humanism.m...;­
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>>>>>­>>> This message was sent by ken ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>>­>>> To learn more about ken, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
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>>>>>­>>> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
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>>>>>­>>>
>>>>>­>> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>>­>> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>>­>>[masked]
>>>>>­>>[masked]
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>> ____________________­____________________­
>>>>>­>> PeoplePC Online
>>>>>­>> A better way to Internet
>>>>>­>> http://www.people...­
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>>
>>>>>­>> --
>>>>>­>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
>>>>>­>> This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>>­>> To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
>>>>>­>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup...­
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>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> --
>>>>>­> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
>>>>>­> This message was sent by ken ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>>­> To learn more about ken, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
>>>>>­> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup...­
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
>>>>>­> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>>>>­>
>>>>>­ Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>>>>­ Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>>>­[masked]
>>>>>­[masked]
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ ____________________­____________________­
>>>>>­ PeoplePC Online
>>>>>­ A better way to Internet
>>>>>­ http://www.people...­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ --
>>>>>­ Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
>>>>>­ This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>>>­ To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
>>>>>­ To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup...­
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> This message was sent by ken ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>>> To learn more about ken, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
>>>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup...­
>>>>
>>>> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
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>>>
>>> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
>>> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>>>[masked]­
>>>[masked]­
>>>
>>> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________­____________________­
>>> PeoplePC Online
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>>> --
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>>> This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
>>> To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
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>>
>>
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>> This message was sent by ken ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
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>>
>> Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
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> 
> 
> Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
> Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
>[masked]
>[masked]
> 
> "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904
> 
> 
> ____________________­____________________­
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.people...­
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
> This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
> To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.m...­
> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup...­
> 
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