addressalign-toparrow-leftarrow-rightbackbellblockcalendarcameraccwcheckchevron-downchevron-leftchevron-rightchevron-small-downchevron-small-leftchevron-small-rightchevron-small-upchevron-upcircle-with-checkcircle-with-crosscircle-with-pluscontroller-playcrossdots-three-verticaleditemptyheartexporteye-with-lineeyefacebookfolderfullheartglobegmailgooglegroupshelp-with-circleimageimagesinstagramFill 1launch-new-window--smalllight-bulblinklocation-pinm-swarmSearchmailmessagesminusmoremuplabelShape 3 + Rectangle 1ShapeoutlookpersonJoin Group on CardStartprice-ribbonprintShapeShapeShapeShapeImported LayersImported LayersImported Layersshieldstartickettrashtriangle-downtriangle-uptwitteruserwarningyahoo

Re: [humanism-174] Presidential Politics

From: Mark T.
Sent on: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:06 PM
Todd,
But what about "great" ideas like the privatization of public water supplies? Why is it better to have wealthy people control things which we would consider "necessities", rather than have them under some form of collective control? What's next... the privatization of Earth's atmosphere?
The internet as we know it will probably be ruined within the next few years by corporate anti-net neutrality forces.


 
On 9/10/07, Todd Maher <[address removed]> wrote:

I think that we have enough Socialism in this country already. All that will do is give our corrupt government more power and more bribes for business contracts so that politicians can be bought through campaign contributions.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Tiborsky <[address removed]>
>Sent: Sep 8,[masked]:15 AM
>To: [address removed]
>Subject: Re: [humanism-174] Presidential Politics
>
>I have to agree with you 100% about this, Michael.
>I believe that the U.S. could use a dash of socialism to help combat the
>greed & corruption that is running rampant in our society. I also believe
>that the ideal political system would be a mixture of capitalism &
>socialism. It's like that now, sort of- but both the government and the
>"private sector" are far too corrupt for the system to work properly.
>
>Nature > Man.
>Man = the rest of the animal kingdom.
>True liberty for all (including animals) > $.
>$ > than a sharp stick in your eye, or stepping in dog poop.
>
>Mark
>
>
>On 9/6/07, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:
>>
>> I wish I could write more, but my boss might mind.  That is the biggest
>> issue I have with capitalism- It devalues human beings, places no
>> consideration on the community.  It's all about money.  Who can make the
>> most, and how.  We need to stop this.  Every single problem in our nation
>> stems from the dispicable notion that $ > people.  I am not a pacifist for
>> that very reason; people who value their own interests more than they value
>> what is right, just, and moral must be stopped by any means necessary.  I
>> will explain my position further after I get off of work.
>>
>> *Mark Tiborsky <[address removed]>* wrote:
>>
>> Michael,
>> Community gardens are an excellent idea. I do remember reading several
>> years back about some folks having one in the inner city, maybe it was in
>> NYC. It was a  fairly small garden- but I do remember people saying that it
>> helped instill a sense of "belonging" in the members of the community who
>> participated.
>>
>> Land use policy on the local, state, and federal levels is all messed up.
>> While private property rights must be respected to some degree, there has
>> been far too much land "abuse" going on. Since we moved to Richmond Heights
>> in 2004, hundreds of acres within city limits have been lost to so-called
>> "progress". The worst example is less than a mile from us, the Trebisky
>> "Woods" development. Starting late last year, around 80 acres of beautiful
>> woods were COMPLETELY razed. Three homes (look like about $250,000 homes)
>> were built so far, and guess what? No takers, because of the terrible
>> housing market. So now the developer says he won't build anymore 'til those
>> 3 go... meanwhile, the heartbroken folks who live around the developement
>> have to put up with a huge mud pit behind their backyards instead of the
>> beautiful forest that was once there. Those fuckers didn't even leave ANY
>> sort of buffer along the neighboring properties! I mean, how hard is it
>> to at least leave a 15 to 20 foot tree/shrub buffer along the perimiter?
>> Worse yet, I believe Trebisky Woods was city-owned land that was sold off to
>> the highest bidder.
>>
>> Then we have the Tongass National Forest in Alaska... America's last great
>> rainforest. It was relatively untouched just a few years back- but thanks to
>> the greedy Republicans doing favors for their greedy corporate
>> dingleberry-lickers, the Tongass is now criss-crossed by over 5,000 miles of
>> logging roads. They're after the biggest trees, of course- one huge virgin
>> tree can yield $10,000 worth of wood. Damn it, that's OUR LAND TOO! We won't
>> see jack poop for this... maybe a plank of a certain type of wood will be 3
>> cents cheaper?
>>
>> I believe in the preservation of land for the sake of it- and for the sake
>> of the beings that live there. Bill Clinton did some awesome deeds just
>> before leaving office- the creation of 5 new National Parks, and designating
>> other areas as National Monuments- including the massive Grand
>> Staircase-Escalante Natl. Monument in Utah- boy, were the mining interests
>> pissed!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> On 9/4/07, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm glad you liked it.
>> >
>> > I would have to disagree with you about the draconian punishments.
>> > While violence, rape and murder are without question deplorable, I do not
>> > feel that the prison system we have set up works.  With three millions
>> > inmates, it is difficult to claim that it does.  I believe that the
>> > punishment should be swift, intolerable, and horribly unpleasant, and then
>> > we should work towards reconditioning the person into society.
>> >
>> > Cruelty towards animals?  The only time I have ever given in to a fit of
>> > rage was the time my neighbor's son hit my twelve year old golden retriever
>> > with a football.  I heard him say "Hey Boomer!"  and then the poor dog was
>> > struck right in the side.  I don't remember chasing him up the street, just
>> > catching him at our front door crying and my mom and dad having to hold me
>> > back.  I wanted to kill him for that.  I have to admit, I consider myself a
>> > very moral person, but when I see someone inflict harm against an animal,
>> > well, lets just say that my teeth are clenched just writing this sentence...
>> >
>> >
>> > Guns?  Yes, you have a right to own a gun. I like to point out however,
>> > that when the Bill of Rights was written, it included the right to bear
>> > arms.  About a decade later, as the French Revolution metamorphosed into the
>> > Napoleonic Wars,  the was a debate within the British army as to whether or
>> > not they should go back to using longbows.  Longbows were superior to the
>> > rifles used back then; it was only the length of time needed to train an
>> > archer (6-10 years) versus a rifleman (2-3 months).  So, yes, the
>> > constitution does grant the right to own weapons.  I doubt very much that
>> > the founders would be keen allowing Uzi's and M-16's to fall into the hands
>> > of republicans, under the guise of "constitutional right".
>> >
>> > The environment.  I think we need more of it.  I happen to like
>> > forests.  I like trees, bushes, shrubs, grasses, ferns, flowers, mosses,
>> > vines, roots, thickets, fields, streams, paths, etc.  I think rigid blocks
>> > of uniform grass plots are ugly.  What we need is true integration with our
>> > environment.  I don't see why communities cannot set aside a few acres of
>> > land for their residents to work.  Let people grow their own food.  Why the
>> > hell should we let a corporation do it for us?  I have dirt in my backyard!
>> > I grow tomatoes, and lettuce, and peppers, and herbs!  And if we all did it,
>> > and we all set aside some space in our community for doing so, we wouldn't
>> > have to spend so much at the grocery story.  And we would have something our
>> > community could live and work around.  People could volunteer to tend the
>> > fields, and in the fall, everyone got to take their fair share of it.  Bay
>> > Village has 16,500 residents, give or take.  If we were to designate several
>> > areas that have little or no value as fields, us them to grow crops, and
>> > allow people to tend and when the time came harvest the results, we could
>> > give every home in the city a basket of, say, strawberries.  We have the
>> > land.  What would it cost?  A few thousand dollars?  And people would take
>> > care of it because everyone would benefit.  And the land that is probably
>> > going to be used to build some big fancy house would improve the
>> > environmental quality of our city.  Just an idea I had.
>> >
>> > I agree with you about John Edwards.  He appears to me to be the most
>> > committed, promising, decisive candidate in the field.  I like them all,
>> > but, as I just decided (Thank you Mark, I haven't been able to make up my
>> > mind until I read your impression of him), John Edwards is the best
>> > candidate.  He strikes me as the person who most wants to be there, not just
>> > because he can be, not just because it would be nice, not to prove a point,
>> > or to breach a wall, or to bring attention to some issue.  John Edwards is
>> > the only candidate that I feel has a genuine idea of where he wants to go.
>> > He has a vision of our nation's future, and I am going to do everything that
>> > I can to help him realize it.
>> >
>> > Michael
>> >
>> >
>> > *Mark Tiborsky <[address removed]>* wrote:
>> >
>> > Michael,
>> > The political compass test is cool! I thought the questions were very
>> > good ones, though a few were a bit vague. I came out exactly where I thought
>> > I would, solidly Libertarian Left- well towards the lower left corner,
>> > actually. Certain other questions could conceivably tilt me a little more
>> > towards authoritarian- for instance, I believe in draconian punishments for
>> > violent crimes, whether commited by a 14 year-old or a 75 year-old. Also, I
>> > believe that cruelty to animals should be a FELONY... maybe it is in some
>> > places, I'm not sure- I think it's a $500 fine misdemeanor in Ohio.
>> > That's pretty much where I've stood politically for most of my adult
>> > life. Some of my views have changed a bit over the years, notably on gun
>> > issues. I still HATE guns. I view them not as a symbol of human strength,
>> > but of human weakness. But I have come to believe that the 2nd amendment
>> > must be respected as much as any other part of the U.S. Constitution...
>> > but it does say, "well-regulated militia", does it not? We do indeed have
>> > the right to defend ourselves and our families from malicious intruders, or
>> > from a tyrannical government- but that doesn't mean there should be NO gun
>> > control. FAR too many instances of gun violence is my reason for believing
>> > in some gun control.
>> > Evironmentalism is a driving force for me also. I could never vote for
>> > ANY candidate whose policies are not reasonably "pro-environment". Overall
>> > this is my most important issue, and it's one of the main reasons I have
>> > voted solidly Democratic. The Democrats have proven themselves to be better
>> > "guardians" of Nature than the Republicans (Green party can't win, at least
>> > now). But let us not forget that it was Richard Nixon who signed into law 3
>> > of the most important bills ever- the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, and
>> > the Endangered Species Act.
>> > The Democratic Party of modern times are also better "guardians" of the
>> > principle of separation of church & state- that's a biggie for me, too.
>> > (Obviously).
>> > As for the candidates, I would love to see John Edwards get the
>> > nomination... I think he's a lot more of a lefty/libertarian than he lets on
>> > right now. He's beginning to open his mouth a bit... we shall see. As it
>> > stands now, my own views are closest to Kucinich & Mike Gravel.
>> > As for the Republicans, of course I would love to see Ron Paul get the
>> > nomination. He & the above guys are the only real straight shooters in the
>> > race. I'm with this guy about 60%- but all in all Ron may be too right-wing
>> > on some issues for me to give him full support. This may change should he
>> > run as an Independent, and REALLY tell it like it is without having to
>> > coddle his fellow Republicans.
>> > In reality, I predict an Edwards/Guiliani race. May the bullshitting
>> > Liberal trounce the slimeball neoconsevative terror profiteer!
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >
>> > On 9/2/07, Michael < [address removed] > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I love politics.  I love reading about politics, I love learning about
>> > > politics, I love discussing politics.  So that's what I'm going to do now.
>> > >
>> > > Everyone in this group clearly cares about our nation's future; I
>> > > would like to see where our views intersect and where they diverge.  I'll
>> > > start by presenting my position thusly:
>> > >
>> > > On the political spectrum, I stand on the far left.  I do not adhere
>> > > to one specific ideology; I would describe my views as a mix of socialism
>> > > and environmentalism strongly influenced by my Atheism, the ideas of
>> > > evolution, and Philosophy.
>> > >
>> > > I dislike the left/right political spectrum though; I instead prefer
>> > > to compile my views with a political compass.  These two sites differ
>> > > greatly, but have helped me hone my beliefs into a comprehensible position.
>> > > http://www.politicalcompass.org/ is based in Europe, but it offers a
>> > > detailed and insightful analysis concerning one's political beliefs.
>> > > http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm is a terrific site for anyone
>> > > trying to decide which candidate in a particular field best matches their
>> > > position.  They also use a compass, albeit different, to represent the views
>> > > of our leaders.  Both are good sites for deciding which candidate you want
>> > > to support, which leads me to my next question.
>> > >
>> > > Who do you want to see as the candidate for president from each
>> > > party?  Which Democrat would you like to see in the White House (as is
>> > > inevitable at this point)?  Which Republican would you most like to see run
>> > > against them?  And why?
>> > >
>> > > Michael
>> > >
>> > >  ------------------------------
>> > > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48220/*http://tv.yahoo.com/ >on Yahoo! TV.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Please Note: If you hit "*REPLY*", your message will be sent to *
>> > > everyone* on this mailing list ( [address removed])
>> > > This message was sent by Michael ([address removed]) from The
>> > > Cleveland Freethinkers.
>> > > To learn more about Michael, visit his/her member profile<http://humanism.meetup.com/174/members/4594899/>
>> > > To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here< http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm>
>> > >
>> > > Meetup.com <http://meetup.com/ > Customer Service: [address removed]
>> > > 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please Note: If you hit "*REPLY*", your message will be sent to *
>> > everyone* on this mailing list ( [address removed])
>> > This message was sent by Mark Tiborsky ([address removed]) from The
>> > Cleveland Freethinkers.
>> > To learn more about Mark Tiborsky, visit his/her member profile< http://humanism.meetup.com/174/members/4783078/>
>> > To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here< http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm>
>> >
>> > Meetup.com <http://meetup.com/> Customer Service: [address removed]
>> > 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>> >
>> >
>> >  ------------------------------
>> > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket:
>> > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48253/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC>mail,
>> > news, photos & more.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please Note: If you hit "*REPLY*", your message will be sent to *
>> > everyone* on this mailing list ( [address removed])
>> > This message was sent by Michael ([address removed]) from The
>> > Cleveland Freethinkers.
>> > To learn more about Michael, visit his/her member profile< http://humanism.meetup.com/174/members/4594899/>
>> > To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here< http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm>
>> >
>> > Meetup.com <http://meetup.com/> Customer Service: [address removed]
>> > 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please Note: If you hit "*REPLY*", your message will be sent to *everyone*on this mailing list (
>> [address removed])
>> This message was sent by Mark Tiborsky ([address removed]) from The
>> Cleveland Freethinkers.
>> To learn more about Mark Tiborsky, visit his/her member profile<http://humanism.meetup.com/174/members/4783078/>
>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here< http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm>
>>
>> Meetup.com <http://meetup.com/> Customer Service: [address removed]
>> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48517/*http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please Note: If you hit "*REPLY*", your message will be sent to *everyone*on this mailing list (
>> [address removed] )
>> This message was sent by Michael ([address removed]) from The
>> Cleveland Freethinkers.
>> To learn more about Michael, visit his/her member profile< http://humanism.meetup.com/174/members/4594899/>
>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here< http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm>
>>
>> Meetup.com <http://meetup.com/> Customer Service: [address removed]
>> 632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA
>>
>>


Chair, Lake County Libertarian Party
Asst. Organizer, Cleveland Ron Paul 2008 Meetup
[masked]
[masked]

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."   -Mark Twain, 1904


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com



--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ( [address removed])
This message was sent by Todd Maher ([address removed]) from The Cleveland Freethinkers.
To learn more about Todd Maher, visit his/her member profile: http://humanism.meetup.com/174/members/4218204/
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup.com/account/?tab=comm

Meetup.com Customer Service: [address removed]
632 Broadway New York NY 10012 USA


Our Sponsors

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy