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Mark T.
user 4783078
Cleveland, OH
Post #: 588









Rafiq M.
RafiqMahmood
Bogor, ID
Post #: 1,082
That's not how I see it, Mark...


A former member
Post #: 125
The problem is that there are two fundamentally different ways in which the term agnostic are commonly used.
Sam S.
secuhumatheist
Cleveland, OH
Post #: 27
I've heard just about everyone of those arguments on that bingo card. It reminds me of that Atheist 2.0 video that's going around. I think the bottom line here is that the religionists can't take the heat so they're trying everything in their arsenal to stop the secular movement. I'm just glad I'm smart enough to see through their lame excuses.
A former member
Post #: 20
I find this extremely intriguing & very thought provoking. So on point ! Thanks.
Mark T.
user 4783078
Cleveland, OH
Post #: 589
That's not how I see it, Mark...


Rafiq, I see what you're getting at- but there's no way a parallel can be drawn between a scientist in a lab and the question of whether or not gods exist. There is absolutely no god-data to analyze, not even one iota of god-math to calculate, nor any compelling reason to think that god-data might suddenly appear. As far as the scientist in the lab is concerned, the probability of god's existence is precisely 0%.

Agnosticism about how the universe came into being is a different story. But as far as science is concerned, no god-data = the idea of gods is ruled out completely.

The man-with-head-in-the-sand is referring to "militant agnosticism", which can mean the definition #1 found in the Free Dictionary:

AGNOSTIC (n) a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

The logic of this position instantaneously caves in on itself. The holder of this position is claiming knowledge of a "property" of God (that he/she/it is unknowable) - thus, this point of view is self-defeating. Furthermore, this agnostic position doesn't actually address the question at all- hence the head-in-the-sand.

Definition #2 is far more realistic. I would go as far as to say that every lapsed theist passes through this position at one time or another:

AGNOSTIC: b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

This position may be construed by some as head-in-the-sand (for lacking the ability to draw a conclusion), however given the pervasive nature of religion in the world, it is a perfectly understandable position to take & is not self-defeating in its logic.


Rafiq M.
RafiqMahmood
Bogor, ID
Post #: 1,083
Bugger the definitions. The question of whether god(s) exist or not is so trivial it is not worth bothering about. We have come a long way since Huxley and by limiting it to gods he did a grave disservice to the language. I go back to the Greek – without knowledge. That is what our physics teacher told us – a scientist is someone without knowledge but with immense curiosity. And that is an enormously powerful motivation and principle: in stark contrast to religion, as it happens.

The quest for understanding is something which will by far outlive atheism which, by its very nature, is as doomed as the foolishness which it opposes.

I get rather annoyed at images of people with their heads buried in the sand. I have never seen anyone do this literally and it is a slander on the behaviour of ostriches which never do it either.
Mark R. O.
MROrel
Cleveland, OH
Post #: 111
Bugger the definitions. The question of whether god(s) exist or not is so trivial it is not worth bothering about. We have come a long way since Huxley and by limiting it to gods he did a grave disservice to the language. I go back to the Greek – without knowledge. That is what our physics teacher told us – a scientist is someone without knowledge but with immense curiosity. And that is an enormously powerful motivation and principle: in stark contrast to religion, as it happens.

The quest for understanding is something which will by far outlive atheism which, by its very nature, is as doomed as the foolishness which it opposes.

I get rather annoyed at images of people with their heads buried in the sand. I have never seen anyone do this literally and it is a slander on the behaviour of ostriches which never do it either.


Rafiq:

Well said.


M. Orel
"I would rather define my philosophy in terms of something
positive – the humility of not knowing being the spur to curiosity"
- Rafiq Mahmood

Rafiq M.
RafiqMahmood
Bogor, ID
Post #: 1,093
Look into my eyes....


A former member
Post #: 22

The man-with-head-in-the-sand is referring to "militant agnosticism", which can mean the definition #1 found in the Free Dictionary:

AGNOSTIC (n) a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

The logic of this position instantaneously caves in on itself. The holder of this position is claiming knowledge of a "property" of God (that he/she/it is unknowable) - thus, this point of view is self-defeating. Furthermore, this agnostic position doesn't actually address the question at all- hence the head-in-the-sand.

Your logic is faulty. Even if "knowability/unknowability" is a property (which some may dispute), the agnostic claim that "it is impossible to know whether there is a God" is only referring to the property of existence; it does not claim that all of the properties of God are unknowable.
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