Excellent points.  The methane especially from cattle production is a very significant global warming factor.  And society is going to be in deep trouble when all of the effective antibiotics cease to function.  - Don

---

Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Vegan Issues
From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Date: Wed, 23 Mar[masked]:03:46 -0400

Don,

Yes, researchers have already created artificial meat tissue however they are not releasing it to the public just yet, they are still doing research. I guess that we can come to the conclusion that the animal suffering involved in objectively irrelevant due to the lack of impact that it has on society, however, what is objectively relevant is the global warming that it causes and the effects on the environment, even if the factory farms stop using fossil fuels the animals themselves will affect the environment due to overpopulation.

https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-factory-farms-and-environment

Here's a quote: 

6. Large-scale animal factories often give animals antibiotics to promote growth, or to compensate for illness resulting from crowded conditions. These antibiotics enter the environment and the food chain.

It should also be noted that overuse of antibiotics creates superbugs which would then, due to evolution, create new incurable disease if transmitted from the farm animals to humans. Then when it spreads it will have a huge impact on society.

Sources

• 1 

  The Humane Society of the United States. "An HSUS Report: The Welfare of Animals in the Meat, Egg, and Dairy Industries." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 2 

  The Humane Society of the United States. "Animal Agriculture & Climate Change." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 3 

  Natural Resources Defense Council. "Pollution from Giant Livestock Farms Threatens Public Health." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 4 

  Natural Resources Defense Council. "Pollution from Giant Livestock Farms Threatens Public Health." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 5 

  Koneswaran, Gowri, and Danielle Nierenberg. "Global Farm Animal Production and Global Warming: Impacting and Mitigating Climate Change." Environmental Health Perspective, 2008.

• 6 

  The Humane Society of the United States. "Animal Agriculture & Climate Change." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 7 

  National Graphic Society. "Fertilized World." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 8 

  The Humane Society of the United States. "Animal Agriculture & Climate Change." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 9 

  Natural Resources Defense Council. "Pollution from Giant Livestock Farms Threatens Public Health." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 10 

  The Humane Society of the United States. "Animal Agriculture & Climate Change." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

• 11 

  Natural Resources Defense Council. "Pollution from Giant Livestock Farms Threatens Public Health." Web Accessed April 18, 2015.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Don Wharton <[address removed]> wrote:

Bo,

I've changed the subject line given your excellent review of evidence supporting your vegan preferences.  I think some members of our forum might prefer that you not use scatological terms to make philosophical points.  It does detract a bit from the quality of presentation.

While I do eat meat it should be noted that I have altered the mixture for health reasons.  Vegetables have excellent virtues.  As for the much reduced quantities of meat that I consume, it is now mostly chicken and fish.  And frankly the research on using insect proteins seems to present a promising option for those who appreciate the protein balance and vitamins found in animal based food.  Apparently 20% of humans now consume insects in significant quantities now.  It is just not culturally the norm in our society.

Philosophically speaking, the suffering of animals rather minimally impacts the wider society.  Bo does obviously have a cogent point concerning the relatively small numbers who work raising and processing animals for food.  The quality of consciousness of mammal species is vastly more sophisticated than that of chickens, fish or insects.  Obviously for those who see this as an important issue, the research on growing meat tissues independently from the animals themselves has to be of interest.  My guess is that with enough research the cost of beef and ham might become much lower than is now the case with farm raised production systems.

Enough for now,

Don

---

Subject: Re: [atheists-27] On Jared
From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Date: Tue, 22 Mar[masked]:01:25 -0400

This email is directed at everyone but I was inspired to write it because of Don's quote.

"I am suggesting that our personal behavior is not out of bounds as a subjects of possible criticism. I eat meat. People who are vegetarians or see see benefit from such a diet are quite free to advance reasoned evidence that my person choice is wrong on this point."

You did not think that a vegan could read that and choose not to start a debate, did you? Haha, just kidding. However I did want to make you aware of the animal suffering that is caused by consuming meat & animal products, and also make you aware of how healthy a vegan diet truly is. Now first let me explain the illegal animal cruelty that goes on in the meat, diary & egg industry, the rule of thumb to go by is that the less amount of money that the animal product costs, the higher the amount of cruelty that goes on, lets use McDonalds for example, McDonalds Quarter Pounder would cost a consumer about $3.79 which means that it costs McDonalds probably under one dollar to acquire that quarter pound of meat, after you consider that they still have to purchase cheese & condiments and still finish at a profit, in that case the meat industry can't afford to feed its farm animals for months, provide sufficient constant veterinary care for months, and purchase & maintain sufficient land for the animals to graze & roam on in order to prevent psychological stress, and still sell their meat for less than four dollars per pound, now without the humane care of animals the meat will be of lower quality, but lets be honestly frank, the average american doesn't give a shit that their quarter pounder is causing them cancer. The fact that the meat industry can't afford to raise their animals in humane conditions means that the meat industry has to cut corners and spend the least amount of money for the most amount of product, that's where the unethical practices come in, they keep thousands of farm animals in a cramped warehouse where the animals are either in a cage so small that they can not turn-around (because they need as many animals as possible), or they don't have cages at all and the thousands of chickens, pigs & cows are all cramped in one area where they defecate, urinate and vomit all in the same place, keep in mind that this is where they slap a "Cage-Free, Grass-Fed" sticker on your meat package to make you think that it came from your grandpas farm where you named your cow Daisy and cried when she had to be slaughtered, only to rhetorically question "Why?". The grossly unsanitary environment in a compact area where there are thousands of live mammals creates a heaven for deadly bacterial disease, it can easily infect and spread like wildfire, therefore it does, but this is when the FDA starts getting involved so the meat industry suddenly starts giving a fuck about the animals and they are forced to inject them with antibiotics so that they don't get contagious diseases, but hey, now that they can legally get prescription drugs for the animals, why not buy steroids so that the chickens, pigs & cows will get fatter and fatter until they get twice the amount of meat, for the same farm animal? And the animal abuse continues to higher levels now that the farm animals get many different injections daily after they wake up from their mattress of shit, piss, and vomit as they wait for their abuser/rapist (They use sperm rods to breed the females, if the baby is male it turns into veal, if the baby is female it turns into a diary cow) to come feed them grass from the fields surrounding their concentration camp (I fucking said it). When the farm animal is fat enough, it's forced onto a truck where it goes to a slaughterhouse, in which it is clamped onto a machine and hung upside down, and a spinning blade slits their throats one by one, the machine plops them all into boiling water so that it becomes easy to remove their skin and you know what happens next. The only time that this issue is addressed is when animal rights organizations do investigations on the factory farms, and have the workers imprisoned, frankly I don't think it's the workers fault, 48% of Factory Farm workers are immigrants that are paid $23,000 per year, that's $63 per day, it's the fault of the company owners, and the fault of the people for whining that their cancer inducing Quarter Pounder is now $15 instead of $4. The workers probably get psychological effects from being forced to do what they do to the animals, and there is video footage of the animals turning to cannibalism due to psychological stress. Here is my evidence Mr. Wharton, it is very very graphic, I usually can't watch more than ten seconds or read a few words but here you go, just so you know what you're contributing to by purchasing animal products. The footage are all from undercover investigations done by organizations such as MFA (Mercy For Animals) & PETA.

Tyson Foods

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNY4Fjsdft4

More Tyson Foods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L2mGC4zezM
Egg Farm Investigation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd_pCS9N5Vg
Dairy Farm Investigation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNFFRGz1Qs
Rape Footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PlJgBeOmZc
Perdue Farms Investigation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05h2hNi1S1g
Slaughterhouse Investigation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFHHktnYIww
Collection of Investigations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99LxOCMgD-w
Huffington Post News Article Headlined: Dairy Farm Faces 20 Counts of Animal Cruelty Charges
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/01/chilliwack-dairy-farm_n_9361854.html
Geese Cruelty
http://www.buffalonews.com/opinion/buffalo-news-editorials/unfathomable-case-of-animal-cruelty-on-farm-quickly-generates-appropriate-response-20160309
Countless other articles
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=farm+animal+cruelty&tbm=nws


Now about health, frankly, if you aren't eating vegan, you aren't eating healthy and that is the truth. Take a look at these studies done, Notice that I am not sending you articles from bloggers who know as much about nutrition as me and you, i'm sending you explanations of studies done by medical scientists, from medical scientists that prove my statement.


This link is an explanation of studies done by Dr. Michael Greger, he does these studies himself, the studies themselves are linked inside of his explanation.
http://nutritionfacts.org/2014/12/16/comparing-vegans-arteries-to-runners/



More by Greger
http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/03/10/antibiotic-resistant-superbugs-in-meat/



Last one from Greger
http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/03/03/how-to-prevent-childhood-obesity-and-diabetes/



Direct study by government researchers
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23889755




A question that you may have is that, "If dairy is so unhealthy, why do doctors tell us to consume it so much?" well, first I want you to note that doctors used to endorse cigarettes for years after the studies came out, it was only after the government got involved that people started accepting the studies and it became illegal for tobacco companies & doctors to say that smoking is good for you, now the answer to your question is that doctors are as educated about nutrition as we are, they know how to heal you (That's why they tell you to go vegan when you get cancer) but they don't know how to prevent disease that do not come from infections because then they'd just be losing revenue. Here is my evidence.


National Survey done by the government that concludes that doctors aren't getting an adequate amount of nutritional education
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20736683


Another survey from four years previous comes to the same conclusion
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16600952



Nutrition Doctor Article
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2015/04/most-doctors-lack-formal-training-in-diet-and-nutrition.html



Basically, they know enough to come across as they know a lot about a healthy diet. So, if you choose to consider my argument that's filled with logically reasoning and evidence, you come to two choices, you can either accept what I am saying as true and go vegan, or you can choose not to go vegan and reply with your own case, as well as evidence backing up your case. I've spent two hours creating this email, the reason that I did so is because I know that you're open to criticism and you will take my case well, I assume that you've never heard vegan arguments to my extent due to the fact that you are a carnist, so I am providing you the opportunity to live longer and also save 185 of those poor farm animals per year by going vegan.


http://www.peta.org/blog/vegans-save-185-animals-year/



Lastly, I read in one of these emails earlier that a person acknowledged that vegans are ethically superior, however they eat meat because of the tast, my father and I just had an amazing dinner at my favorite vegan restaurant, if you live in the Aspen Hill area check out Vegetable Garden,  and if you live in College Park then check out nuVegan Cafe and get the crab cake sandwich & barley salad (my favorite), the replicas that they create are so amazing that sometimes I can't believe it's vegan. They make their mock meat using tofu & mushrooms, if you enjoy meat then you will definitely enjoy their mock meat, you get the same taste without the trip to the bathroom later or the guilt.


- Bo

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Don Wharton <[address removed]> wrote:

I have reviewed much of the recent discussion between Jared and my friend Robert. I want to be out front with my current opinion that Jared's expression of his views was legitimate in all cases that I reviewed. Moreover, I want this forum to be open to others who think as he does. My opinion is that we are as a community more powerful and well informed when such intelligent educated people feel comfortable in being a member of our community. My strongly felt preference is that such people should feel a warm sense of welcome from the rest of us.

The fact is that roughly half of our country has gone off in a direction seems quite crazy to many on this forum. In Jared's case we are not talking about the blatantly anti-scientific nonsense such as young earth creationism, global warming denialism or a belief in flying saucers. We will not understand how and why the rest of America thinks the things that they do without being open to listening to their perspectives. Moreover, the secular revolution will never be a national success until we have large numbers of people with a similar disposition who are comfortably included in our many secular communities.

A central premise of our secular community is that truth claims are not protected by virtue of any preexisting term of identity. Nothing is either true or false by the virtue of any term of identity that people may ascribe to themselves. The only thing that is true because I identify as an atheist is that I like the company of other people with a secular world view. It does not even entitle me to reject potentially valid evidence that a God like creature may exist.

Jared did voice ethical claims which Robert could take as being critical of his personal choices. I read this discussion as making a generic ethical point which is quite similar to those advanced by Peter Singer, a renowned and very influential moral philosopher.

I am suggesting that our personal behavior is not out of bounds as a subjects of possible criticism. I eat meat. People who are vegetarians or see see benefit from such a diet are quite free to advance reasoned evidence that my person choice is wrong on this point. I drive a gasoline fueled car. My 2007 Honda Civic has a bit over 32,000 miles on it. I passionately searched for a reasonable alternative when I bought it. It was the smallest and most fuel efficient car that I could find which met my search criterion. Compared to the average fossil fuel use by others it is quite modest. However, I have friends who ride bikes or electric scooters and since I view such choices as quite admirable, I see no reason why my continued use of a fossil fueled vehicle should be protected from reasoned criticism. I see no reason why we should not consider arguments that much of what we see as normal behavior is less than optimal to advance our shared moral benefit.

What is not legitimate in our discussions is to suggest that the arguments advanced by others are illegitimate by virtue of some negative personal quality. Note that I have shared scientific studies demonstrating how and why conservatives think differently and arrive at factual falsehoods. I have no intention to cease posting on the science describing these differences. In fact I will here reference research demonstrating that for those who identify as conservative, the more educated and informed they are about science in general the more wrong they tend to be on the facts of climate change:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2459057

What we cannot do is cite such research to demonstrate that any particular claim by anyone is wrong or inaccurate by virtue of such generally applicable differences. My position is that humanity is globally inclined to self-delusion to an extent that is quite excessive. It is true that liberalism in general wins. Witness the acceptance of racial equality and equal rights for women. “Conservative” arguments against such equality will be grounds for banning from our community since this now settled science and rejection of it would be seen as morally reprehensible by 99.9% of those in our community and a similar percentage outside our community. There is no such general acceptance of liberal claims concerning economic issues. Moreover, there are too many examples of bankruptcies and social dysfunction that is arguably linked to leftist principles. We need to understand how and where the moral good might exist that best serves the general thriving of our society.

Don

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