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Mailing List Archive

Subject Sender Date
Startup Weekend - April 5-7 - Startup Weekend returns to Madison April 5-7, 2013. Last year's event brought together over 100 people for a weekend to work on 15 different exciting projects - some turned into real companies. Startup Weekend is a 54-hour event where developers, de Paul M. Mar 30, 2013 8:44 AM
Tonight's Meetup back in the off-bar banquet room - Hey folks! Looks like another good turnout for tonight, despite still being the dead of winter. We're back in the big banquet room off the bar (our normal room) at the Essen Haus tonight. I couldn't get us the cozy room on the other side this t Paul M. Mar 20, 2013 7:59 AM
Reminder - meeting room changed tonight - Last reminder for tonight's meetup - we will not be in our normal room at the Essen Haus off the bar, but the other, slightly smaller meeting room to the left of the dance floor. See you tonight!   Paul M. Feb 20, 2013 3:38 PM
Back at the Essen Haus next week - but different room - This is a heads-up for our meeting next Wednesday. We'll be back at the Essen Haus, our usual place, but *not* in the room off the bar, but the other room which is to the left of the hostess stand as you enter the main entrance. Please try to r Paul M. Feb 15, 2013 11:12 AM
OT: WWII history/Beer geeks wanted for Europe tour - In addition to being a computer geek/nerd/whatever I'm also a big WWII and beer nut as some of you know. I'm planning my next trip back to some famous WWII (and a few WWI) battle sites in France and Belgium in May, and we need one more person f Paul M. Feb 8, 2013 3:13 PM
OpenShift Primer Giveaway - Preview not available Elizabeth B Jan 23, 2013 8:13 AM
Plan on standing room only tonight! - We have 60 people signed up for tonight's meetup! When we decided to go with the venue change I had estimated we'd maybe get 30-40 people, so I think we've outstripped the Vintage's ability to have chairs for everyone. Be warned! Fortunately, t Paul M. Jan 16, 2013 10:34 AM
Fwd: - Preview not available Amine B. Jan 15, 2013 1:07 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] HUGE Meetup coming up! - Hey Paul, For the presentation portion I know we had some interest and some support for the­echaKucha style of talk. Is this the f David K Jan 11, 2013 9:05 AM
HUGE Meetup coming up! - Hey folks! 45 confirmed so far for our next meetup. We may actually hit the room capacity. Because of the number of people our sponsor will be covering a nice spread of appetizers. The bar will be cash. If you want a substantial meal p Paul M. Jan 11, 2013 8:49 AM
Please remember to RSVP for next meetup - If you are planning on coming to next week's Meetup at Vintage Brewing Company, please remember to mark yourself down as attending. We need to accurate count! There is no need to do anything if you are definitely NOT coming tho Paul M. Jan 9, 2013 10:49 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Venue change for January meetup - Vintage Brewing is the one on the west side. Nice place - good beer. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:22 PM, Sean < Eric S. Dec 17, 2012 8:44 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Venue change for January meetup - Vintage west or downtown? Sean On Dec 17,[masked]:59 AM, "Paul Miller" < [address removed] > wrote: Sean Dec 17, 2012 6:22 PM
Venue change for January meetup - Hey folks! Looking forward to seeing everyone this Wednesday for our normal meeting at the Essen Haus. This will be our last meetup of 2012, and if you believe that stuff, the last one ever as the world is ending on the 21st. Prost! Our January Paul M. Dec 17, 2012 7:59 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] code review? - Thanks for all the comments; I've made the review community list into a blog post, along with some thoughts on code reviews in general. > What are thoughts on a code review? I am the only developer and can always > use some feedback, esp with some Robert M. Dec 12, 2012 12:06 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] code review? - Thanks Andy. Hadn't seen the SE Code Review site. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Andy Lester < [address removed] > wrote: Jim R. Dec 11, 2012 4:05 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] code review? - On Dec 11, 2012, at 4:04 PM, Luke Pacholski < Andy L. Dec 11, 2012 4:05 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] code review? - One thing worth mentioning - I've found code reviews are only useful if the developer is engaged and is looking for constructive criticism. I've been in a few where the developer clearly doesn't care and basically shrugs off any comments/issue Luke P. Dec 11, 2012 4:03 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] code review? - On Dec 11, 2012, at 3:43 PM, zekai otles < Andy L. Dec 11, 2012 3:45 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] code review? - He ll o Ryan, I have just come across this site for code review­mycode/. Even your sol zekai o. Dec 11, 2012 3:43 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] code review? - Constructive peer code review is really high up there for code quality and improvement.  (Perhaps the #1 driver) Both participants learns a lot from the discussion, and the feedback is really useful, if done in a constructive manner. Jaz S. Dec 11, 2012 3:25 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] code review? - Software is a people problem. You don't write it for computers you write it to generate behavior for people and be maintainable by the next person/people into the codebase. In my opinion code reviews or a surrogate for them are critical. Jim R. Dec 11, 2012 3:21 PM
code review? - What are thoughts on a code review? I am the only developer and can always use some feedback, esp with some of my recent code. I am sure that others feel similarly. Input? -- Ryan Brown Bioinformaticist in Depart Ryan Dec 11, 2012 3:13 PM
Job posting: Programmer Analyst - We have a 1-year project position currently available at our research lab at UW-Madison. The new hire will work with a team of software developers, ecologists, and information managers to improve usability of a streaming sensor data management mi Aaron Dec 11, 2012 1:47 PM
RE: [softwaredev-113] Job posting: User Interface Prototype Developer - Hi Ameen, are you an animation artist/designer able to crea user 1. Dec 8, 2012 2:45 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Job posting: User Interface Prototype Developer - Hello, I am currently developing a relatively complicated plugin using Google IMA SDK with AS3 Flex, Flash Builder, Amine B. Dec 8, 2012 2:57 AM
Job posting: User Interface Prototype Developer - Hi all, I haven't been to the group in a long time, but from the email discussions I think some folks on here might be interested in a job opening my company, Solidworks Corp., has available. We're l Dave Dec 7, 2012 5:07 PM
greetings and salutations - It was nice to talk to some of you this past Meetup at the Essen Haus!  For those of you who haven't met me, my name is Greg and I'm a grad student at UW Madison studying biotechnology, and I became interested in software development because I' Greg E. Nov 23, 2012 3:28 PM
$200 – Google Developers – Online Research Discussion Tues Nov 27 – Sat Dec 1 - Preview not available margot k. Nov 20, 2012 9:38 PM
Thanks on the WordPress responders - I've found my expert. Thanks for the referrals folks!   Paul M. Nov 13, 2012 3:17 PM
Looking for a WordPress expert - I'm looking for someone who knows the ins and outs of WordPress, who can help me adapt a Squarespace site over. Please contact me off list if interested.     Paul M. Nov 13, 2012 8:29 AM
Reminder: Madison Tech Social this Wednesday - Just a friendly reminder that the Madison Tech Social will be meeting for the second time this Wednesday. It's a fun time - come meet and great some of Madison's smartest people. http://techsocial2012.brownpap­   Paul M. Nov 12, 2012 8:36 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Shop Bop? - Amazon-like slave-dev-shop with no-prospects where you will reinvent-the-wheel and learn-nothing-new. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 11, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Luke Pacholski < Rocky A. Nov 12, 2012 5:47 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Shop Bop? - I haven't worked there, but I had a 3.5+ hour in-person interview and two longish phone interviews, if that tells you anything. I got the feeling that people stay busy. Luke On Sunday, November 11, 2012, Julia w Luke P. Nov 11, 2012 3:19 PM
Shop Bop? - Greetings everybody! I hope I am not taking too much liberty by asking if anyone knows anything about Shop Bop (a small-ish Java shop in town), as far as what it's like to work there. Your insight would be greatly appreciated. Julia Nov 8, 2012 9:49 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Teslacon - Boo TelsaCon is sold out. :-( Matthew Rathbone == [address removed] On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Jim Remsik < Matthew R. Oct 30, 2012 10:15 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Teslacon - FWIW, LessConf 2012 sold out with the last tickets going for $500 each without announcing their schedule. It's something you can afford to do once you have a track record. Often somet Jim R. Oct 30, 2012 9:37 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Teslacon - omgomgomg Yes, I always wanted to live in The City of Lost Children. That said, for a $50 ticket, I would expect the itinerary to be set. On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Paul Mil Timothy N. Oct 30, 2012 9:03 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Teslacon - Great little con. My wife and I go every year. This is the last year it's in Madison. Next year they are moving it to Milwaukee.& JT S. Oct 30, 2012 8:55 AM
Teslacon - Stumbled across this cool looking convention coming up at the end of November, right here in Middleton (near the Madworks co-working space). Never knew about this before, but it looks interesting, and I'll prob Paul M. Oct 30, 2012 8:47 AM
2012 Tech Social November 14 @7pm - This event was quite popular last year. Several of us will be there. Check it out. http://techsocial2012.brownpap­   Paul M. Oct 25, 2012 2:49 PM
Tomorrow's meetup also a Slashdot party - Tomorrow is also the 15th Anniversary Slashdot party. Nick and I are both long-time Slashdot readers so we decided to join forces. If you are also a Slashdot member, go check the box over at the /. party page:­ Paul M. Oct 16, 2012 12:46 PM
At Essen Haus next week - Hey folks - since the weather is still kinda nice and it's nice being downtown for walking around after the meetup, I decided to keep the meetup at the Essen Haus again next week. We'll see how it goes without Katie there, and maybe we can discuss othe Paul M. Sep 11, 2012 11:45 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] The venue search - Union South does have an underground parking ramp now that has alleviated some of the parking woes, and after 6pm there's parking in the Engineering lot. I like that location as well. Eric On Sat, Eric S. Aug 21, 2012 9:51 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] The venue search - Unfortunately, that's perhaps the worst spot in town for parking. ----- Reply message ----- From: "Amine Boulaajaj" <[address removed]> To: <[address removed]> Su Nate C. Aug 18, 2012 5:03 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] The venue search - Union south is my favorite, plus it's close to the DoIT lab... :) Ameen On Aug 17, 2012, at 5:06 PM, Ryan < [address removed] > wrote: Amine B. Aug 18, 2012 1:22 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] The venue search - More centralized: Great dane downtown (bottom floor is cool) Sundance 608 (2nd floor is private) On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Sam Lachterman < Ryan Aug 17, 2012 5:00 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] The venue search - FWIW, there's generally plenty of parking within a block of the Brink. There's a lot for that building, plus street parking, plus the MG&E lot that opens up after hours. I don't have anything to add beyond the parking note, however. Luke P. Aug 17, 2012 4:35 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] The venue search - Downtown is fine, I suppose, but for those of us not residing downtown parking tends to be an issue. That is a perk about the Essen Haus. My two cents. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Sam Lachterm Greg O. Aug 17, 2012 4:31 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] The venue search - Hi all, Some thoughts on venues below. I'd really like for the meetings to stay in the downtown area as well. Brink lounge upstairs at Old Fashioned upstairs at Brocach T Sam L. Aug 17, 2012 4:20 PM
The venue search - Folks - We won't have our excellent (and probably over-stressed) server at Essen Haus anymore and I was thinking it may be time to move to another venue. The good news is recently we've had enough people to make having a reserved space Paul M. Aug 17, 2012 8:53 AM
BarCamp Madison 2012! - (sorry for potential double-post with Message Board (which nobody checks) and e-mail) Hey all! What're you doing this Saturday? Yes, you. Probably nothing, right? Maybe some Facebooking or Brad O. Aug 15, 2012 10:59 AM
ExpressionEngine Contact-Management System Demo in August - Hey folks - Ben Seigel is doing a demo of the ExpressionEngine CMS in early August. This is on a Monday, and not during our normal meetup. More information if you are interested:­ebmeetup/events/721 Paul M. Jul 5, 2012 4:21 PM
Need some Eclipse/Java/Android assistance - I have this Android app here and I want to take most of it and convert it into a package, and then convert the Android app project so it imports/uses the package. (ie. the package will form the core of several apps that all use the common core package, Paul M. Jun 28, 2012 6:37 PM
GeneXus presentation overview - For those of you who couldn't make the meetup last night, here is an overview of the presentation by GeneXus. Roy showed us how the GeneXus ID can be used to build data models that can then generate databases or bind dynamically to existing dat Paul M. Jun 21, 2012 8:46 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Reminder: GeneXus presentation tonight! - Essen Haus 514 East Wilson Street, Madison, WI ( map) Full meeting info here: Eric S. Jun 20, 2012 3:37 PM
More give-aways for tonight's meetup - Since Eric is being so generous I'll throw in a couple of Version Control by Example books. The meetup starts in about 3 hours at Essen Haus!   Paul M. Jun 20, 2012 2:42 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Reminder: GeneXus presentation tonight! - Where is it? On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:52 PM, eric selje < [address removed] > wrote: Rocky A. Jun 20, 2012 2:32 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Reminder: GeneXus presentation tonight! - Software Devs, I'll bring one PluralSight monthly subscription to give away as a door prize. If we get more than 25 people at the meeting, I'll give away 2. Those are decent odds. Eric MadFox Eric S. Jun 20, 2012 1:52 PM
Reminder: GeneXus presentation tonight! - A rep from GeneXus in Chicago will be here tonight for a presentation on their cross-platform development platform. We'll be doing this meetup in conjunction with the MadFoxers meetup, so try to get there by 6pm if possible. We'll probably star Paul M. Jun 20, 2012 9:34 AM
Special Presentation from GeneXus at next meetup! - Our June 20 meetup will feature a special presentation by Roy Hart of GeneXus:   Roy Hart is coming from the GeneXus office in Chicago to do a live demo of GeneXus. GeneXus Paul M. Jun 12, 2012 11:03 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Middleton members - having a drink at Village Green - Is anyone on this list from the Beaver Dam/Columbus area? Or know if there is a group towards Fond du lac? On Jun 4,[masked]:57 PM, "Paul Miller" < [address removed] > wr Anthony S. Jun 4, 2012 8:03 PM
Middleton members - having a drink at Village Green - Emmanuel and I are meeting for drinks at The Village Green. For you Middleton-area folks looking for something to do, why not join us?   Paul M. Jun 4, 2012 6:57 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Madworks Coworking is now open! - Nicely done!!! On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Paul Miller < [address removed] > wrote: Timothy N. Jun 4, 2012 10:27 AM
Madworks Coworking is now open! - Hey folks - wanted to let everyone know that the west side co-working space, Madworks , is NOW OPEN! Stop by and say hi and get a tour if you are interested.   Paul M. Jun 4, 2012 8:03 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Classic Tex Murphy adventure game developers in need of Kickstarter help - OMG, Is this the Under the Killing Moon Guy? Cool!! That game was so awesome!!! On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Paul Miller < [address removed] & Don H. Jun 1, 2012 5:31 AM
Classic Tex Murphy adventure game developers in need of Kickstarter help - This is a message to anyone who played those Tex Murphy adventure games on the PC back in the 90s. They are working on a Kickstarter to develop a new Tex Murphy game, to wrap up the cliffhanger of their last game, Overseer. They need to raise a Paul M. May 31, 2012 8:33 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] UW web developer - My pal Rick is with UW Soil Science. Some of the apps he develops are web apps. Beard, long hair. If that's who you mean, I'll send you his email address. On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:55 PM, Mike Walsh Dennis A. May 31, 2012 7:06 PM
UW web developer - Hello All, I am trying to figure out who the UW Madison web developer was at the last Mike W. May 31, 2012 2:55 PM
1 year Linux embedded contractor position available now - There is a large company in Oshkosh that makes trucks that is looking for a Linux embedded display tech kind of contract job for 1 year.  If you have experience with Linux, embedded systems, C++, Python, and GUI, and are interested in this one year co Paul M. May 24, 2012 10:09 AM
Upcoming conferences - Hey folks we had a great meetup last night with lots of discussion about other meetups in the area, and some upcoming conferences that might be of interest to people: - Yet Another Perl Conference,, June 13-15 in Ma Paul M. May 24, 2012 9:23 AM
Can we hit 25+ at tomorrow's meetup? - Hey folks! Back from vacation and well rested, and I see we have 26 people signed up for tomorrow's meetup! Weather is looking nice but don't let that stop you from coming down for some German beer and interesting discussion. BTW - we're settin Paul M. May 22, 2012 11:11 AM
May meetup one week late - I'll be out of town on the usual third Wednesday in May so we'll be having the meetup once week later, on the 23rd. I hope this doesn't inconvenience anyone.   Paul M. Apr 25, 2012 3:29 PM
Essen Haus banquet room tomorrow - Hey folks as usual we'll be back in the Essen Haus Banquet room. Emmanuel should have a status report for us on the Mad West Coworking space project, which I believe is set to go live in May. I'm hoping to reschedule our source-control discussi Paul M. Apr 17, 2012 2:01 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Middleton Co-working Space starting up - On a similar note, Capital Newspapers is looking to have their space available later this month at 2001 Fish Hatchery. Would it make sense to get a reciprocity program going for basic access? They are looking Timothy N. Apr 7, 2012 11:25 AM
Middleton Co-working Space starting up - Hey folks - Emmanuel wants to get the co-working space going soon - possibly as early as the latter part of this month. If anyone has a suggestion for a name please reply to this and we'll keep track. If Emmanuel ends up picking one of the sugg Paul M. Apr 5, 2012 1:29 PM
Looking for Android programmer/beer lover - I need some help getting up to speed with Android development. I have an app design, XML data, icons, logos, UI flow, etc. and just need the hand-holding to get an initial application up and running. I need someone to sit down with me for a few Paul M. Mar 31, 2012 3:17 PM
Looking for Drupal assistance - I want to "port" a site (mostly content) from Squarespace to a new Drupal 7 install. The content will be mostly copy/paste, with some image links to flickr. But I'm having trouble working through Drupal's block and top-level content page model. Paul M. Mar 28, 2012 1:27 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] CMS with license-based access? - This sounds more like a file server than a CMS to me. Depending on the application user 2. Mar 28, 2012 11:14 AM
CMS with license-based access? - Anyone know of a CMS that has fine-grained license control over content access? For instance, say I have a desktop application but I want to "cloudify" its file storage, then control application licensing on the back-end/storage side by control Paul M. Mar 28, 2012 10:53 AM
Tomorrow's meetup: Essen Haus Banquet Room - Hey folks! This looks like it could be our biggest meetup yet! Too bad there isn't enough space for us outside, because the weather is looking nice! We'll be talking about the Middleton coworking space, source control strategies, and I'd like t Paul M. Mar 20, 2012 12:45 PM
Coworking space survey - Anyone interested in the Middleton coworking space (or any coworking spaces in general) please check out the survey that Emmanuel created. We'll talk progress at this Wednesday's meetup!­BJCDMGR Paul M. Mar 19, 2012 12:40 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Co-working meetup summary and ideas for next week - Paul: Sorry I missed last night, we had other obligations. Sounds like a fun topic for the next meeting. If I can make it, I'd be happy to talk about how we use Perforce at Sony Creative Software. Dennis A. Mar 15, 2012 10:02 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Co-working meetup summary and ideas for next week - Preview not available John M. Mar 15, 2012 9:39 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Co-working meetup summary and ideas for next week - I'd love to have a discussion around branching strategies for companies that have a large number of projects in the code base. It would be awesome if we could have a large white board or drawing pad to draw out some branching scheme Robert V. Mar 15, 2012 9:29 AM
Co-working meetup summary and ideas for next week - Hey folks! Last night went very well. We had a nice turnout and an excellent walk-through of the co-working space Emmanuel is setting up at the WTC building. Next steps are a survey and then hopefully getting the space setup. Stay tuned for more announ Paul M. Mar 15, 2012 9:13 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - Nicholas, do you guys have greenhopper as well. Greenhopper + jira gives you a view representation of issues and sub emmanuel b. Feb 27, 2012 6:53 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - We use JIRA at work, but honestly I don't love it. What I want is a tree-type interface showing me a prioritized list of tasks, where each task is associated with other tasks in order to show which tasks block (necessarily precede) other tasks. JIRA h Nicholas K Feb 27, 2012 3:51 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - Have used (good, free) & mingle from thoughtworks (great, not free). Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Dennis Adams < Jason N. Feb 27, 2012 3:49 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - Paul, At Sony Creative Software, we use: Atlassian  Jira for issue tracking, Perforce for version control, and Atlassian Confluence for internal wiki. Dennis A. Feb 27, 2012 11:48 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - Hi Paul, What am I using? Basecamp (3 project Basic Plan--look for the fine print under the three featured plans), for $24.95/month. I'm part BA...I can't help it: Would Basecamp solve your problem if it weren't for the cost? Why locally in Robert M. Feb 27, 2012 11:41 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - I really like Pivotal Tracker:­   It was also previously free and now has plans based on the number of users starting at $7/month. Candace B. Feb 27, 2012 8:55 AM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - we use, it's pretty awesome. Matthew Rathbone == [address removed] On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Robert Voliva Matthew R. Feb 26, 2012 9:54 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - I'm a huge JIRA fan/advocate as well. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Josh Roesslein < [address removed] > wrote: Robert V. Feb 26, 2012 8:50 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - Another solution that is free minus the need to host it is .   Curtis Allen Gibeaut Jr. Insomniac Development LLC Office:[masked] Curtis Allen Gibeaut J. Feb 26, 2012 8:39 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - I've recently started using Google Apps for managing my business, with Insightly as a client resources manager. It's 5 bucks a month, so practically free. It also integrates with your mail and calendar easily. Also seems to be very intuitive so fa Scott G. Feb 26, 2012 7:07 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - We also use JIRA at Appcelerator. It's a pretty good system and I don't have many complaints about it. Josh R. Feb 26, 2012 6:58 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] Free/inexpensive project management? - One of the best by far is Jira by Atlassian. Check out their products page at emmanuel b. Feb 26, 2012 6:16 PM
Free/inexpensive project management? - What are you guys using for project management? I know BaseCamp is supposedly the bees' knees but quite expensive and ActiveCollab, the previously "free" alternative to it is now much less free. Are there any other solutions, possibly open-s Paul M. Feb 26, 2012 4:37 PM
Re: [softwaredev-113] UW Hub Presentations this Wednesday - I think Paul meant 1210 West Dayton St. Also, for parking, I'd actually recommend the parking garage at Enginnering. It's an additional two blocks over, but it's free after 4:30 PM. Here's a map for it:  Bill L. Feb 20, 2012 5:33 PM

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