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Vegan Chicago Message Board Vegan Chicago Speaker Events › PRE-TALK: Vaccine Talk

PRE-TALK: Vaccine Talk

A former member
Post #: 2
Excerpted from an anti-vax group:

VEGANS & VEGETARIANS AGAINST VACCINATION?

1. All vaccines are non-vegetarian.

2. Vaccines are TOTALLY ineffective.

3. We are told that vaccines create immunity. The vaccine theory is incorrect. If the rich evil drugs industry will stoop to torturing and killing animals, they will also stoop to lying.

4. All vaccines contain animal products, including from genetically engineered animals and diseased factory farmed animals: - Sheep, monkey, mouse, cow, guinea pig, goat, horse, calf, chick, rabbit, dog, pig, etc.

5. Vaccines contain human and animal blood and excrement.

6. All vaccines contain aspartame which is made from toxic chemicals and pork extracts.

7. Vaccines are grown on animal tissues.

8. Vaccines are tested on animals in cruel experiments.

9. Vivisection is unscientific due to species-differences, and has caused millions of human deaths. The more we test on animals, the less we know about human health.

10. The drugs/vivisection/vaccination industry is not interested in prevention, cures, causes, science, medicine, or compassion. They are only interested in profit, control, power, sadism, and destruction of all life.

11. If they were genuinely interested in health, they would use and develop natural medicines and natural therapies, and make these available free. They suppress and try to eliminate natural medicines and therapies.

12. The drugs/vivisection/vaccination industry KNOWS that vaccines are totally ineffective and harmful – they design them to damage, dumb down and depopulate.

13. They KNOW that natural healing is safe, effective and economical.

14. Drug company owners and directors never use their own products if ill, but use natural medicines instead.

15. The drugs industry, which is the second richest industry in the world, admits that most of their products do not work, and that all drugs are toxic.

16. Pharma now produces drugs and vitamins containing toxic aspartame, making them less useful and more harmful.

17. Toxins and nutritional deficiencies cause disease, and vaccines increase toxins and deficiencies greatly.

18. Therefore, vaccines are a significant factor in all physical and mental diseases.

19. We know what factors cause disease. We know how to create and maintain health.

20. Vaccines are TOTALLY ineffective. Vaccines damage the immune and nervous systems etc, but make huge profit for the drugs/vivisection industry!

21. Good health is the only immunity.

22. We need to love, respect and protect all life. All life is from the One Source. All lifestreams are sacred.
Dave D.
dave.dandelion
Chicago, IL
Post #: 788
Alice, thanks for starting this thread. Really, I should have created one like I did for the GMO talk but I underestimated the contentiousness of the issue. This is great though and I'm excited by the prospect of exploring this with the group!

Ok so to start, that's a big list you excerpted. I'm sure many people wonder similarly, as you, what to make of it. Well that's why we're bringing in an expert because I cannot answer these. Using our critical thinking baloney detection habits though, we should ask what the source is for these claims. Could you please provide that source? That would help us understand the context for which these are derived. Is this coming from a credible expert? Are those claims grounded in systematic testing and discovery (science)?

Thanks again for bringing this up!
Dave D.
dave.dandelion
Chicago, IL
Post #: 789
Marla asked on the event page thread:
does Dr. Alexander do animal testing in his research? Regardless on my position on vaccines, this is something I'd want to know before attending. Thanks!

That would be a good question to ask Dr. Alexander himself. That's one of the reasons we do these speaker events! Direct access to the experts themselves is a valuable learning experience. Instead of adopting the common narrative that's often spoon-fed to us (just like the "eating animals is the only way" mentality) we should exercise open-mindedness with critical thinking skills.

Dr. Alexander is coming to us as a representative of science. Whether or not he personally tests on animals, it's well-known that modern medical science does indeed use animal testing to bring us the benefits it discovers. That principle is more important than any personal act he himself engages in. In that regard it's a moot point really. If we want to make a difference for animals we must recognize that to clearly identify our objectives. The issue of animal testing is bigger than this topic can cover but perhaps in the future we can bring in an expert to speak upon that. For now though, let's focus on the topic at hand without, of course, losing sight of the lives that are sacrificed to bring us this technology.

We hope that you, and others, afford us at Vegan Chicago the benefit of the doubt when we work hard to bring these sorts of ideas to the surface and challenge the supposed status quo. Our mission to support local vegans is paramount and the effort it takes to bring these speakers out is no small matter. There's a carefully crafted method to the madness we promote. After 10 years we've learned a lot and we are excited to share that! smile Thanks for your question!
Dave D.
dave.dandelion
Chicago, IL
Post #: 790
Vadim commented on the event page thread:
Marla - It's a common knowledge that there is no such a thing as a vegan vaccine and they involve animal testing (we all know what it means). However, after it was pro-GMO event I am not surprised having pro-vaccine event. Here is the link to Alice's post:

Vadim, first of all, that is a broad and generalized statement of vaccines. Common knowledge is not a good citation for such a claim. Much more of vaccines could be said than a simple list of ingredients. Do "we all know what it means", really? Perhaps we don't, how can you make such an assumption? We are bringing in a scientific expert so that our members can get the facts straight from the source and use their critical thinking skills to make up their own minds. We encourage you to attend and find out for yourself as well!

Second, we are proud of our speaker series which provides access to credible science-based experts to speak in their field. Our GMO talk was neither "pro" or "anti" but we did bring in Dr. Kevin Folta to provide his expertise and recorded it as a podcast for people who weren't in attendance to also benefit. If you found it to be a "pro" talk then maybe you took away something you need to think more about.

Thanks for your comment!
A former member
Post #: 393
Do "we all know what it means", really? Perhaps we don't, how can you make such an assumption?
Yes, I am making this assumption that the most people here have a good idea what it means.

We are bringing in a scientific expert so that our members can get the facts straight from the source
I think this statement is a bit ambitious as bringing a person who might be knowledgeable in the subject doesn't establish the fact on the subject but just an opinion of this professional (based on a set of facts he may use to explain his opinion). A specialist with a different opinion could potentially deliver a very different "facts straight from the source".
At the same time, I am really glad that you bring attention to this issue that definitely need more clarity and objective facts so I encourage everyone to look at as many different opinions as reasonable (including the speaker), possibly do their own research, and then form their own opinion on this matter. I hope we both can agree with it.

I agree that "pro" GMO event is my personal impression after I read the event description (http://www.veganchica...­) and talked with some event's attendees (as I personally did not attend it). However, this blog (http://blog.nativefoo...­) shows that this is not only my impression as it called you "A GMO- supporting vegan activist." I am not trying to say that anything wrong with it (everyone is entitled to their own opinion). I am just explaining my perception.

Dave D.
dave.dandelion
Chicago, IL
Post #: 791
I think this statement is a bit ambitious as bringing a person who might be knowledgeable in the subject doesn't establish the fact on the subject but just an opinion of this professional (based on a set of facts he may use to explain his opinion). A specialist with a different opinion could potentially deliver a very different "facts straight from the source".
Looking at our "Baloney Detection Guide" we know that good science is based upon the consensus. One person does not a fact make, true, but when a collection of evidence is interpreted and the conclusions are aligned we have the best picture of what is the most true. Dr. Alexander is well-qualified to be speaking on behalf of that consensus in his area of expertise.

At the same time, I am really glad that you bring attention to this issue that definitely need more clarity and objective facts so I encourage everyone to look at as many different opinions as reasonable (including the speaker), possibly do their own research*, and then form their own opinion on this matter. I hope we both can agree with it.

You almost had it right here. Everyone does not have the expertise and access to all the available data to make a credible interpretation. Imagine if we all had to do that with each and everything thing we do! That is why we must trust the credible science-based experts. I cannot "do the research". I can only look to the experts who do that for a living and trust their opinion. I have my own area of expertise to cultivate and hopefully contribute back.

I agree that "pro" GMO event is my personal impression after I read the event description (http://www.veganchica...­) and talked with some event's attendees (as I personally did not attend it). However, this blog (http://blog.nativefoo...­) shows that this is not only my impression as it called you "A GMO- supporting vegan activist." I am not trying to say that anything wrong with it (everyone is entitled to their own opinion*). I am just explaining my perception.
Thanks for bringing up the Native Foods post on GMO: Native Foods Blog: Vegans Who Support GMO’s (Say What?)
That's not the only example of critically thinking vegans opening their mind up to science. In a more recent example, vegan cartoonist Dan Piraro made a comic strip about GMO here: Mutation Butts | Bizarro Blog! in a not-so-flattering light. I dropped in and gave him some credible sources of information and he wrote a new post days later called Schooled! | Bizarro Blog! and then MORE GMO | Bizarro Blog! and finally GMO-A-GOGO | Bizarro Blog! completely rescinding his original opinion! While everybody is entitled to their own opinion they are not entitled to their own facts. Dan Piraro is a great example of how he changed his opinion when presented with evidence to the contrary. We should all follow such an example.

So you see, I wasn't kidding when I said Vegan Chicago's speaker series is "idea-challenging". If you had attended our GMO event you might know that there is no "pro" or "anti" position really. Thinking otherwise uncovers a misunderstanding of the topic! Fear not though, you can listen to our recoding of the event on our Vegan Chicago podcast and become similarly informed. We encourage all to take advantage of the resources we provide!

Thanks for bringing these issues to light! Hope to see you at the vaccine talk where you can perhaps become more informed on vaccines yourself along with the rest of us.

(*emphasis mine)
A former member
Post #: 394
You almost had it right here.
I am flattered - I am finally getting closer! biggrin

We encourage all to take advantage of the resources we provide!
And I encourage all to take advantage of all resources (not just that you provide). wink
A former member
Post #: 74
Looking at our "Baloney Detection Guide" we know that good science is based upon the consensus. One person does not a fact make, true, but when a collection of evidence is interpreted and the conclusions are aligned we have the best picture of what is the most true. Dr. Alexander is well-qualified to be speaking on behalf of that consensus in his area of expertise.

Consensus reality?
A former member
Post #: 75
Here's a bit more "consensus" to read up on before the presentation.[url]http://articles.merco...­[/url]
Dave D.
dave.dandelion
Chicago, IL
Post #: 792
Here's a bit more "consensus" to read up on before the presentation.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/10/16/unproven-hpv-vaccine-safety.aspx­
First of all, is that consensus?
Second, Mercola is a shady character.
Thirdly, you're in luck because HPV is Dr. Alexander's specialty! You can ask him directly about that Tomljenovic study.
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