Libertarianism is a right wing ideology completely. And as far as immigration is concerned, as long as we have a state it must at least defend those who reside within it regardless of whether or not the state is legitimate. I think the majority of respectable libertarian economists and philosophers would agree despite the efforts of Koch's Cato and Reason Mag. After all Ron Paul was in favor of strong border security as was Rothbard towards the end of his life. Demography and the state are both realities Libertarians must deal with.  

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 13, 2017, at 11:50, Malcolm <[address removed]> wrote:

There's a name for people like this, it's called hypocrites.

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: John Bechtol <[address removed]>

Date: Mon, 13 Mar[masked]:12

To: [address removed];

Subject:Re: [lpsf] Re: [ba-liberty] Starchild speaking at protest over Palantir's collaboration with Trump on surveillance technology

Some libertarians are joining communists to condemn property rights and compell access for all publics,  to all US publically-owned property. 

They want Mexican-public to own their property and the property of US public, too, with no reciprocity in sight or intended. 

U.S public gets no such accommodation anywhere, but these communists-libertarians take US public property for use by anywhere.

It's really very despicable. 

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android Device

-------- Original message --------

From: Lee Bishop <[address removed]>< a="">> <>

Date: 3/13/17 12:36 AM (GMT-08:00)

To: [address removed]

Subject: Re: [lpsf] Re: [ba-liberty] Starchild speaking at protest over Palantir's collaboration with Trump on surveillance technology

John, 

California has approximately  $350 Billion in unfunded liabilities for its public employee pension program and another $300 Billion in estimated infrastructure repair/replacement for the crumbling roads and bridges across this state.

Harassing/intimidating a private business owner on his front lawn doesn't seem to be the best focus one could take for effecting change in fiscal/libertarian causes in this state.  

-Lee 

On Mar 13,[masked]:24 AM, "John Bechtol" <[address removed]> wrote:

U.S. land, not privately owned, is mostly owned by the U.S. public. All government land is owned by U.S. public. 

Why do you deny their right to control their property as they see fit? 

Why do you confiscate the roads they paid-for, to be used by people who didn't pay for the roads? 

Why do you give anyone rights of accession to property they never paid for, by the taking from those who did? 

Some land is owned by non-citizens and would complicate access, but we know ambassadors can be expelled from their property, when they have become undesirable.

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android Device

-------- Original message --------

From: Starchild <[address removed]>

Date: 3/12/17 11:41 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: [address removed]

Subject: Re: [lpsf] Re: [ba-liberty] Starchild speaking at protest over Palantir's collaboration with Trump on surveillance technology

I think Americans, like other people, have the right to intercept anyone they choose at the borders of their own private property – but not at the borders of a large political jurisdiction which contains much land that is not privately owned. If people are arrested or coercively detained there without probable cause, that is a violation not only of the rights of those seeking to relocate to that jurisdiction, but also of others living in the jurisdiction who do not support the freedom of movement restrictions. Their rights to trade with newcomers, work for them, hire them, and enter into other relationships with them, are violated by policies restricting newcomers from entering that part of the worldwide commons. 

If on the other hand there is probable cause that someone has committed or is planning to commit an actual crime, then I think that person can legitimately be stopped and detained by law enforcement anywhere, not just at national borders. Of course "anywhere" includes in other countries.

Love & Liberty,

                               ((( starchild )))

On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:25 PM, John Bechtol wrote:

Starchild,

I meant the American people, not the government.

So, do you give the American people the right to intercept at the border, criminals on criminal missions? 

I'm not yet asking about how they do it. 

I recall you advocating the arrest of criminals in their countries before they came here. 

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android Device

-------- Original message --------

From: Starchild <[address removed]>

Date: 3/12/17 3:32 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: [address removed]

Subject: Re: [lpsf] Re: [ba-liberty] Starchild speaking at protest over Palantir's collaboration with Trump on surveillance technology

John,

You say "the American people", but really you're talking about the colossus known as the U.S. government. Two different things! The standard for stopping and detaining anyone at a border should be the same as the standard for stopping and detaining anyone anywhere else – no government anywhere should stop and detain anyone against their will without probable cause, articulated in writing at the time by the law enforcement personnel making the decision and justified with reference to the appropriate law(s), so that there is "rule of law" and accountability, not "rule of man" and abuse of power. 

I don't think I've ever advocated what you say I've advocated. I have said that sometimes a government military intervention in another country may be the lesser evil, for instance if egregious human rights violations are occurring under some regime and the intervention is aimed at stopping this. As far as I'm concerned, the goal is maximum freedom, minimum government, worldwide (minimizing aggression, i.e. initiation of force).

Love & Liberty,

                                ((( starchild )))

P.S. – "Human trafficking" is a term that gets used to include a lot of things which are not real crimes (see e.g. http://www.traffickingpolicyresearchproject.org/ ). Wiktionary defines "racketeering" simply as "The criminal action of being involved in a racket." In other words, the government authorities whom you apparently want to be able to stop people at borders on suspicion of racketeering, are themselves involved in racketeering.

On Mar 12, 2017, at 8:56 AM, John Bechtol wrote:

Do you give the American people the right to intercept at the border, criminals on criminal missions, including human trafficing, extortion, terrorism, murder, and racketeering?

Or do you advocate intercepting these criminals in foreign countries, with occupation forces as you have said in the past?

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android Device

-------- Original message --------

From: "Starchild [address removed] [ba-liberty]" <ba-liberty-noreply@yahoogroups.com>

Date: 3/11/17 11:38 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: Jeff Chan <[address removed]>

Cc: LPSF Discussion List <[address removed]>, Libertarian SF Meetup <[address removed]>, Bay Area Liberty <[address removed]>

Subject: Re: [ba-liberty] Starchild speaking at protest over Palantir's collaboration with Trump on surveillance technology

 

Jeff,

Millions of people in this country have criminal records. I hope you don't think that means they should all be deported, or that the fact that some deportees have criminal records justifies companies selling their souls to government by providing surveillance tools that will also inevitably be used to continue deporting those without criminal records, as you acknowledge is already occurring?

As I just wrote in a letter to SFGate.com:

"While we appreciate Thiel's support for pro-freedom causes like seasteading, as a representative of the Libertarian Party I spoke at the demonstration to emphasize that our party stands for human rights and freedom of movement. Libertarians do not condone providing U.S. government agencies with surveillance tools to make it easier for them to track and deport immigrants (as well as violate the civil liberties of others in this country). Discrimination based on nationalism is as wrong as discrimination based on racism, sexism, or homophobia, and the billions of tax dollars stolen to fund such discrimination – to say nothing of the violations of people's rights at U.S. borders and elsewhere without probable cause, the government terrorizing and kidnapping of undocumented persons and breaking up of families, etc. – are clear violations of the Non-Aggression Principle. Freedom is for everyone, not just the wealthy and powerful."

The fact that abuses of immigrant rights were going on under the Obama administration means what to you? That we should be silent to such abuses happening now? Say not so! That Democrats and liberals (like Republicans and conservatives) are often hypocrites whose outrage is selective? Tell me something I don't know! 

I spoke out today because the opportunity came to me, and I would have done the same thing three years ago.

Love & Liberty,

                                 ((( starchild )))

On Mar 11, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Jeff Chan wrote:

On Saturday, March 11, 2017, 7:55:54 PM, Jeff [ba-liberty] wrote:

On Saturday, March 11, 2017, 9:57:54 AM, Starchild [ba-liberty] wrote:

From: Sonja Trauss

Sent: Mar 9,[masked]:31 PM

To: Starchild

Subject: Can you talk on Saturday at a rally to protest Thiel/ Palantir/ Surveillance state & deportations?

Peter Thiel's surveillance company Palantir is reportedly finalizing the digital framework for a potential mass deportation operation, should President Donald Trump decide to go that route. Details here:

http://www.ibtimes.com/trump-adviser-peter-thiels-palantir-technologies-aid-ice-immigration-raids-using-2501431

That article says:

"With the adoption of Palantir’s system, Thiel’s assistance will go

beyond Silicon Valley diplomacy. Already, the agency has “arrested

more than 680 individuals who pose a threat to public safety, border

security or the integrity of our nation’s immigration system,” the

Department of Homeland Security said in a Feb. 13 statement."

Of the 680 deported, a majority had criminal records:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/over-680-arrested-in-us-immigration-raids-homeland-security-secretary/ar-AAmTONe

"WASHINGTON, Feb 13 (Reuters) - U.S. immigration officers have arrested

more than 680 people in recent operations, 75 percent of whom have

criminal records, the homeland security chief said on Monday of

actions that have alarmed immigrant rights groups."

Obama did exactly the same thing, but CNN says he deported 2.4 million

people, about 1.2 million who were criminals:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/29/politics/trump-obama-criminal-deportations/

" (CNN)Donald Trump has vowed to kick off his presidency by swiftly

kicking out one segment of the immigrant population: criminals.

But that's exactly what the Obama administration says it's been doing

for eight years. More than 2.4 million people have been deported under

President Barack Obama, earning him the scathing nickname of "deporter

in chief" among some immigrant advocacy groups. Nearly half of those

removals were immigrants with criminal convictions, an explicit

priority of the administration."

That's not the same as deporting all illegal immigrants or building a

system to do that.

Also, the contract was awarded in 2014:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=36fb3b697a2ccb4ec7084b4e0ec6cdb9&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

Who was the President in 2014?

Jeff C.
--
Jeff Chan
mailto:[address removed]
http://rkba.org/

"Switzerland exported democracy to America by being a shining,
stable example of freedom which America's founders imperfectly
copied.  It did not invade America and replace its government."

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