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RE: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute

From: Paul B.
Sent on: Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 10:37 PM
The troops exulting sat in order round,
And beaming fires illumined all the ground.
As when the moon, refulgent lamp of night,198
O'er heaven's pure azure spreads her sacred light,
When not a breath disturbs the deep serene,
And not a cloud o'ercasts the solemn scene,
Around her throne the vivid planets roll,
And stars unnumber'd gild the glowing pole,
O'er the dark trees a yellower verdure shed,
And tip with silver every mountain's head:
Then shine the vales, the rocks in prospect rise,
A flood of glory bursts from all the skies:
The conscious swains, rejoicing in the sight,
Eye the blue vault, and bless the useful light.
So many flames before proud Ilion blaze,
And lighten glimmering Xanthus with their rays.
The long reflections of the distant fires
Gleam on the walls, and tremble on the spires.
A thousand piles the dusky horrors gild,
And shoot a shady lustre o'er the field.
Full fifty guards each flaming pile attend,
Whose umber'd arms, by fits, thick flashes send,
Loud neigh the coursers o'er their heaps of corn,
And ardent warriors wait the rising morn.
The Iliad of Homer, Translated by Alexander Pope

 
From: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute
To: [address removed]
Date: Tue, 14 Jul[masked]:10:45 -0400

Doug,
  • According to a 2008 report from the conservative Americas Majority Foundation, crime rates are lowest in states with the highest immigration growth rates.
    • From 1999 to 2006, the total crime rate declined 13.6 percent in the 19 highest-immigration states, compared to a 7.1 percent decline in the other 32 states.
    • In 2006, the 10 “high influx” states—those with the most dramatic, recent increases in immigration—had the lowest rates of violent crime and total crime.

Nationwide, Immigrants are Five Times Less Likely to be in Prison Than the Native-Born

  • A 2007 study by University of California, Irvine, sociologist Rubén G. Rumbaut, found that for every ethnic group, without exception, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are the least educated. This holds true especially for the Mexicans, Salvadorans, and Guatemalans who make up the bulk of the undocumented population.
    • The 3.5 percent incarceration rate for native-born men age 18-39 was five times higher than the 0.7 percent rate for immigrant men in 2000{Figure 5}. Among male high-school dropouts, 9.8 percent of the native-born were behind bars in 2000, compared to only 1.3 percent of immigrants.
    • In 2000, 0.7 percent of foreign-born Mexican men and 0.5 percent of foreign-born Salvadoran and Guatemalan men were in prison. Among male high-school dropouts, 0.7 percent of foreign-born Mexicans and 0.6 percent of foreign-born Salvadorans and Guatemalans were behind bars in 2000.

S. O. C. K. S. = "It is what it is" in Spanish. 

On Jul 14, 2015, at 17:33, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

From the link you did not read.  The article uses a number of sources and suggests that illegal aliens commit 10X the number of solved crimes than Americans, per capita.  Unless the GAO is bigoted and racist for reporting crime statistics.  Part of the article is below.  

"The Facts
Per the GAO, “as of fiscal 2009, the total alien – non-U.S.-citizen – population was about 25.3 million, including about 10.8 million aliens without lawful immigration status.”
Since the population of the U.S. was about 306.8 million in 2009, non-citizens comprised 8.25% of the population and illegal aliens about 3.52%. (Recall that they represented 25% of the federal prison population then, and almost 39% in 2013.)
How many crimes did they commit? Almost three million. Here they are.


Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/07/illegal_aliens_murder_at_a_much_higher_rate_than_us_citizens_do.html#ixzz3fuKYlnOm
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Jon Anderson <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute
Date: Tue, 14 Jul[masked]:56:58 -0400


Doug,
 
Will my google search indicate a widespread menace to society, or a rough criminal equivalency with US citizens? If you don't know this answer, please google for it first. Trying to avoid your ferocious assumption machine here. 
 
Jon

S. O. C. K. S. = "It is what it is" in Spanish. 

On Jul 14, 2015, at 15:46, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

 
Every illegal is illegal because they are here illegally.  Wow.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Jon Anderson <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute
Date: Tue, 14 Jul[masked]:08:50 -0400

 
Doug,
 
Wow. Do you have empirical data to support this widespread boogeyman problem? 
 
I meet Mexicans/Hispanics on my buses every day (18 years and counting).  Haven't met a criminal yet. This is an anecdote I admit. However no data to my knowledge exists to support your fears, Doug. 
 
Jon
 


S. O. C. K. S. = "It is what it is" in Spanish. 

On Jul 14, 2015, at 14:31, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

Are these the other statements you are referring to?

Quoting the Don:"the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican government."
 
 ". . tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border. The United States has become a dumping ground for Mexico ."
 
Mexico is "sending people that have lots of problems". 
We have a huge problem of illegals and criminal illegals crossing the border.  Estimates vary between 10 million and 20 million illegal aliens in our country.  Many of them commit crimes, including rape, kidnapping, murder, gun running, identity theft.  Everyone using a stolen SS identity is committing a crime.  Mexico objects most strongly to our enforcing our borders.  By their actions, they are advocating the status quo.  Trumps statements remain true.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Jon Anderson <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute
Date: Tue, 14 Jul[masked]:15:56 -0400

 
Doug,
 
Care to try finessing his other quotes? It will require a great deal of mental gymnastics, intellectual dishonesty, and boogeyman thinking. 
 
Jon

S. O. C. K. S. = "It is what it is" in Spanish. 

On Jul 14, 2015, at 13:53, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

"They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc."

A demonstrably true statement, Jon.  "Many" does not mean "all."

Still confused, Jon?


How many illegals can cross your open borders before even you consider it a problem, Jon?

20 million?

40 million?

100 million?

Can you possibly consider that people might have non racist reasons for opposing your open border policy?
 
Google "illegal alien crime statistics" if you wish to become informed on the subject.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Jon Anderson <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute
Date: Tue, 14 Jul[masked]:37:30 -0400

 
Quoting the Don:"the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican government."
 
 ". . tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border. The United States has become a dumping ground for Mexico ."
 
Mexico is "sending people that have lots of problems". 
 
"The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc."
 
Still confused, Doug?
 
Jon 
S. O. C. K. S. = "It is what it is" in Spanish. 

On Jul 14, 2015, at 13:07, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

I believe that you are mistating what he said.  He did not say that all Mexicans are rapists.  Nor did he say that all Mexicans are criminals.

He was addressing illegal criminal aliens who are breaking our laws by coming into our country illegally.  To suggest that his statements are racist is a false accusation and is intended to tell people you disagree with to shutup or face false accusations of racism and bigotry.

How many would you let cross our borders without concern, Paul?

20 million?

40 million?

100 million?

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Paul Brown <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute
Date: Tue, 14 Jul[masked]:49:53 -0400

 
A June 2015 Gallup poll reports 25% of Americans self-identify as Republican. The Washington Post pegs Donald Trump second behind Jeb Bush in popularity with Republican voters at 13%. That means that 3.25% of Americans agree with his racist rhetoric (Mexicans are rapists). It makes sense that only 3.25% of Americans share his views. With a large field of Republican candidates who hold similar or identical views, Mr. Trump stands out as unique. As more mainstream candidates are winnowed out, the remaining 87% of Republican voters will shift their support to one candidate, leaving Mr. Trump at his current peak popularity of 13% of Republican voters. Mainstream candidates like Hillary and Jeb have not taken strong stands on most issues yet, in fear of reaching peak popularity to soon. Fringe candidates like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders recognize this opportunity to make strong statements and leap to the front of the pack. I include Bernie Sanders, not because his views are on the fringe but because he is a Socialist Democrat. Fair or not, the word Socialist still carries a stigma in the U.S. and a Socialist candidate will not draw widespread support.
Paul
 
From: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute
To: [address removed]
Date: Tue, 14 Jul[masked]:14:31 -0400

 
Mr. Trump's successes as a businessman tell me he's got the unique skills, intelligence, and ego needed to succeed at business in a big way. 
 
I am astonished at his political rhetoric. Even more astonished at his popularity. His strategy of only working the national political scene is paying off in a big way. Is he that insightful? Lucky? It's true he's been saying stupid things for decades, but why does that work now, not before?

(Doug, it's disingenuous to point at the democrats who first brought up the Birther arguments. For 9 years conservatives and bigots have raised that strategy to remarkable heights of absurdity. At least the D's stopped that nonsense. No such luck with the R's.)
 
Jon

S. O. C. K. S. = "It is what it is" in Spanish. 

On Jul 13, 2015, at 23:54, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

It was supporters of Hillary Clinton who first made the "birther" arguments.
 
For some reason, only Trump is accused of having a massive ego.  None of the other contenders, at least on the Democrat side seem to be accused by Democrats of having massive egos.

Absent a recognized IQ test, denigrating the intelligence of someone you disagree with seems to be a common political tactic.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Sigrid Coats <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] moral dispute
Date: Mon, 13 Jul[masked]:29:42 -0400

Siva, I think you are attributing far more intelligence and cunning to
Trump than the man has. He has been spouting this nonsense for ages,
long before any presidential races were under consideration. Think, for
example, of his "birther" diatribes. I don't see why he would want
Republicans to lose elections---they are far more likely to pass tax
reductions that will benefit him.  However, as he is most likely
completely concentrated solely on himself (a monomaniac), his ego is
probably his only motivator. Sigrid

On 7/13/[masked]:13, Siva wrote:
> Everyone likely has some rules of conduct that he/she considers
> inviolable, even if that person isn't consciously aware of them.
>
> Nevertheless, I DO believe that many SEVERELY UNDERESTIMATE the extent
> to which unscrupulous means can bring about a DESIRABLE end.
>
> As an example, look at what Donald Trump is doing.  Like many
> Americans, he hates Republicans and wants them to lose elections,
> notably the 2016 Presidential election.
>
> But he knows that given the power and influence of the GOP, that would
> be hard to do directly.
>
> So he came up w/a strategic solution; instead of attacking them, he
> chose to impersonate them, acting like one of their tea party dolts,
> running around the country chanting the traditional myths that appeal
> to the bigoted red state voting blocs, i. e. stories about how
> "illegals" are entering the US to rob and rape and destroy American
> culture, forcing all US kids to wear sombreros, snort cocaine, and eat
> tacos.
>
> As a result, he's now leading the GOP race, making himself its
> official icon, which could ultimately only guarantee that the GOP
> LOSES the general Presidential election in 2016 (since the majority of
> Americans and esp. Latino voters would only roll their eyes at his
> silly racist tirades, even if the red state voters worship them).
>
> In a nutshell, he's guaranteeing a Dem victory in 2016 NOT by trying
> to educate the public about the dangers of the other side, but rather
> by trolling the opposition w/black propoganda.
>
> By using this tactic, Trump, a single individual w/lots of $$, did in
> a matter of weeks what would've taken millions of volunteers, 2 years,
> and 1000x more $$ to do.
>
> Regardless of what one thinks of Trump, his actions prove that in
> somes (i. e. when trying to achieve political victories), nefarious
> tactics can often be FAR MORE efficient than so-called "honest" ones.
>
> Siva
>
> On 7/13/15, Sigrid Coats <[address removed]> wrote:
>> Paul, thanks for sharing this article, which points to our growing
>> general dilemma, and which increases the more [morally] diversified a
>> social structure becomes. I recently read about Gandhi, who was supposed
>> to have given the following advice to his followers about their
>> decision-making with respect to the break from the British. *He seemed
>> to believe that the individual has a faculty that allows him/her to
>> discern whether an action is beneficial to another and* *that it is
>> mandatory for it to be beneficial* (and therefore, I believe, it cannot
>> include a custom such as honor killing):
>>
>> /�I will give you a talisman. Whenever you are in doubt or when the self
>> becomes too much with you, apply the following test: recall the face of
>> the poorest and the weakest man whom you may have seen. Ask yourself if
>> the step you contemplate is going to be of any use to him. Will he gain
>> anything by it? Will it restore to him a control over his own life and
>> destiny? In other words, will it lead to Swaraj /[self-rule] /for the
>> hungry and spiritually starving millions? Then you will find your doubts
>> and your self melting away."/ [Mahatma Gandhi]
>> Sigrid
>>
>> On 7/13/[masked]:09, Paul Brown wrote:
>>>   In our meeting last week, Jon and I disagreed on whether a
>>> businessman was acting ethically. In Jon's story the businessman hid,
>>> from his lenders, the fact that the business was losing money. He
>>> justified this as the only way to save the  jobs of his many
>>> employees. This article in The New York Times, written by Alex
>>> Rosenburg, professor of philosophy at Duke University, sheds some
>>> light on why we have such trouble settling moral disputes.
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/can-moral-disputes-be-resolved/?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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