Your ownership of any property that interferes with my access to food, water, medical care, or any other need constitutes a coercive force, in that it allows you to set a price higher than I can afford, in order for you to take ownership of my property. Competition would eliminate this coercive force, but once you have that property, you have established a monopoly and as such eliminated any opportunity for competition.

This is where regulation becomes necessary, and libertarianism fails.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Property is not using force is I own the property. I don't accept the concept of ownerless property. If you don't own it, you don't have a say over it.

On Mar 12,[masked]:31 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:

"Doctors should be able to serve whoever they want - the richest or the most sick. It's the doctors prerogative."

Unless they have accepted a contract to provide services on an as-needed basis to any who come seeking aid. But it is their prerogative not to accept such a contract...

"Businesses should be able to tell gay people to go to Hell and get out of their store (good luck withstanding the social pressure but it's their prerogative.)"

Not sure if I disagree with you on this one - it's a gray area for me.

"A man with a fire extinguisher should be able to choose which houses on fire he wants to put out. It's up to him."

As it stands right now, he has that right, so long as he obtained that fire extinguisher on his own. And yet, failing to use it when it is needed represents a coercive force.

"You'd have to be specific. I could threaten them for trespassing. They could get something for free while suffering the danger of getting shot. :) 

Property rights tend to solve this small little problem. "

But now you're using force. Property rights in and of themselves represent a force, when the property in question serves a common interest.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

You'd have to be specific. I could threaten them for trespassing. They could get something for free while suffering the danger of getting shot. :) 

Property rights tend to solve this small little problem. 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Duff Means <[address removed]> wrote:

"I'd probably let him use the road for free - I might persuade him to give a.portion when repairs are needed. You know, I might cooperate with my neighbor."

"Persuade" - good luck!

and what about when all of your neighbors realize they can get something from you for free? Do you keep providing it, or do you move? Or do you "persuade" them too?

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Read my lips. I don't care. Either learn how to persuade me or forget getting my time and effort.

On Mar 12,[masked]:15 PM, "Joseph B" <[address removed]> wrote:

not to add to to the fun ... but the problem with government is when it works well, you don't hear about it at all. Only when it fails does it ever make discussions in the public sphere... No one ever says... and on tonight's news... the National Institutes of Standards and Technology functioned perfectly well! 

Truth is, your day is intimately connected with the government. your radio? station that woke you up? that food in your fridge and eggs you ate in your breakfast? the water running to your shower?, the road you drove on? The internet you're using now? Within a single day, you've used more of the government;s resources than you care to admit.  

My problem with libertarianism is it's a philosophy that basically says, markets are the answer to everything. inefficient? use a market! without thinking of either the ethics involved, or the goods being traded.  I doubt I'd find any liberal that would ever say "government is the solution to everything!" but the opposite is true in libertarians.  

Just to steal some examples from Sandel, why can't I walk into an emergency room, and have the doctors provide their services through markets? The ones with the "highest willingness to pay" perhaps should get the care and attention of the doctor next?  

Or why can't orphanages sell their orphans on the free market? clearly if you have the highest willingness to pay, it means you'll cherish the child the best... so what's wrong with selling orphans?  

the idea that because you somehow believe in collective goods, even mundane UN sanctioned ones like say UNCLOS, somehow means you believe in god is absolutely absurd..... 

Joe

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Duff Means <[address removed]> wrote:

The difference between us is, I see the benefit to civilization and thus to myself in keeping your house from burning down, and thus in collecting taxes to ensure that we civilization is able to prevent your house from burning down.

You, on the other hand, are just selfish. Self-concern is a good thing, to be sure - but selfishness is not.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:03 PM, Duff Means <[address removed]> wrote:

I don't have an argument against my own responsibility for maintaining my own driveway.

But if I build the road connecting your driveway to the fire station, good luck getting me to allow that fire truck to drive on that road to put out the fire at your house.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Good luck getting me to build your drive way. You might want to buy a Kevlar vest first :)

On Mar 12,[masked]:57 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:

What about the road leading to my house? What about the road further beyond, that connects my neighborhood to the highway?

If I maintain it at my own cost, my neighbors receive the benefit at no cost. If I don't maintain it, I lose access to emergency services, to deliveries from stores I make purchases from, etc.

If we collectivize the maintenance - then we've established a state, and taxes that must be collected "by force"

There is a limit to libertarianism. Infrastructure is one of those limits.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:52 PM, bruce <[address removed]> wrote:

That's why streets and sidewalks should be owned and operated by business districts, neighborhood associations, private companies, anyone but government.  Government doesn't clean them or fix them, allows potholes and sink holes and craters, muggers and rapists, rats and other vermin, marching nazis and the Westboro baptist church.  Anyone else would have a profit motive or some self interest in protecting the consumer.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013, Duff Means wrote:

The sidewalk leading directly to the store's door is a direct financial benefit, just as much as having the store itself is.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

The side walks are the essence of an indirect financial benefit.

On Mar 12,[masked]:42 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:

The mall builds the sidewalks because it, and the stores that do business there, know that there is a direct financial benefit to them for having those sidewalks.

If stores and individuals saw a direct financial benefit to having publicly maintained roads, I doubt we'd be having this discussion... but since that benefit is indirect (in that people having a road to their house allows them to go to any store, not just the store that is paying the tax) then the tax needs to be imposed.

I should point out, before this gets too far - I am not in favor of ALL taxes, nor do I believe that all government spending and regulation benefits all of civilization. I do think all taxes and all regulations should have a clear public benefit, or should be eliminated.  As an example, government subsidies to oil companies, or bridges to nowhere, or excessive military-industrial complexes, are inappropriate uses of our tax dollars. Likewise, regulations that create a barrier to entering the market for small companies give advantages to large companies are inappropriate.

I am not in favor of communism - but I do agree with Chad's points completely.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

You won't get our money by threatening us with jail and we are the ones that can provide the goods. Malls don't threaten me for walking on their sidewalks if I don't buy things in the stores..it's a free service provided by the stores for the purpose of making purchases easier. The mall owner persuaded the store owners to supply the resources needed to erect and maintain the mall and its sidewalks. If this can be done voluntarily, then I am not convinced roads must be built via slave labor.

On Mar 12,[masked]:25 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:

I assume, then, that when when you're going to the grocery store, you don't drive on publicly-maintained roads? When your house catches fire, you don't call the public fire department? When you get robbed in the street, or someone breaks in to your house, you don't call 911? You don't send your kids to public schools?

You still rely on government regulations to keep you safe, whether you want to admit it or not. Regulations keep the electric company from sending you power that is unsafe, and the water company from poisoning you with unclean water or unsafe pipes. Regulations keep other people's cars maintained at an adequate level to ensure your safety, or remove them from the road.

You're a fool to think that you are doing it on your own. It's not intimidation to point out that you benefit from the infrastructure and civilization those taxes buy.

If nothing else, you benefit from roads you will never even drive on, because it allows other companies to acquire and deliver the goods they need to provide to you the goods and services you consume.

Arrogance like that is what makes libertarianism non-viable.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Zach

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