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RE: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies

From: Don W.
Sent on: Friday, March 25, 2016, 10:33 PM
Cruz is a Christian Dominionist.  His view of religious freedom is Christians should have the right to ignore most laws that violate their perceived messages from God.  The fact that some of the GOP establishment see him as the only option to stop Trump should not be seen as saying that they like him.  Almost all of the GOP serving in Congress find him to be totally loathsome.  Lindsay Graham recently famously said that Cruz could be killed on the floor of the Senate and if his killer were tried there no one would convict him.  Frankly, he would probably lose against either Hillary or Bernie almost as badly at Trump would.  The only difference is that with Trump many principles of right wing Republican dogma (ie. free trade) are totally trashed.  It would make it hard for the GOP to have a narrative about what they stand for if Trump is the nominee.

The suggestion that Sanders would be disrespectful of the rule of law is just slander with no basis whatsoever.  He was the Mayor of Burlington, Vermont through four two year terms.  On 12/21/1987 that radical right wing rag, The US News and World Report, cited Bernie as one of America's best mayors.  The negative quality of Latin American leftism rests with its corruption and authoritarianism.  There was not the slightest hint of either during the eight years in which Bernie served in an executive capacity.  The quality of life nurtured when he was mayor was quite popular.  It snowed a lot in Burlington and he instituted a socialist program of snow removal from the city's sidewalks.  He correctly called it socialism (small s) and the result was a more agreeable quality of life.

Another thing that I think should be viewed as a positive even by our more conservative members is that he works with Republicans in a way that says proves his respect for others even when they have differing views.  My guess is that he would be much better than Obama in communicating across party lines.

Don


From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies
Date: Fri, 25 Mar[masked]:07:03 -0400

Venezuela's last elections were a victory for the opposition, but the country has a long way to go.  It's heartening that people there are turning a corner.

That's a good point about the Rule of Law. In general, Scandinavian countries are known for relatively clean, transparent government. The Rule of Law is one attractive feature of investing in our country--which explains in part why so many foreigners have put so MUCH money here.  So...which candidate would respect that principle?  I thing Cruz and Clinton probably would.  Sanders...I don't know.  As for Trump--NO WAY. If The Donald becomes President, don't be surprised if other countries start pulling their money out.

Tom

From: "Don Wharton" <[address removed]>
To: "atheists-27" <[address removed]>
Sent: Friday, March 25,[masked]:46:59 PM
Subject: RE: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies

I don't see that Venezuela is coming out of its communistic black hole.  They have the highest inflation on the planet and people are having great difficulty just finding food.  The patina of democracy was destroyed with its heavy handed appropriation of almost everything and the criminalization of all opposition.  This has no relationship whatsoever with a responsible social democracy.  The point that you made about the Scandinavian countries not taking control of industry is a critical difference.  I don't think anyone in our community is so delusional that they find the Venezuelan example to be attractive. 

My original post with this thread was from Marketwatch.  Obviously Marketwatch is a somewhat conservative finance based organization.  They were praising the financial performance of the Scandinavian markets because there was good rule of law and excellent protection for investments made in those countries to create new productivity.  This created better than average total returns.  The social investments in education and an absence of corruption were other elements that created the financial success seen in these countries.

My view is that dogma of all forms is the enemy.  I find much of the American right to be totally delusional and dangerous.  However, I also want liberal and progressive claims to be examined and criticized where the outcomes are equally bankrupt.

Don




From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies
Date: Fri, 25 Mar[masked]:21:24 -0400

Our country is so huge and diverse that a one-size-fits-all approach would be impractical.  And even Scandinavian countries have not had government control of industry (true socialism).  They have enough resources, with relatively small populations, that their elaborate social services are within their means.  That's not quite true for us. Socialism in this country would make it more like Argentina or Venezuela--a prospect that I do not exactly relish. And they are renouncing socialism. Good for them!

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

------ Original Message ------

From: Jared Reeves
To: [address removed]
Sent: March 25, 2016 at 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies
"As an aside, are you saying that anyone who wants a small government is a racist?"

Sounds like something a racist would ask (sarcasm font).

- Jared

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Matthew Mendell <[address removed]> wrote:
Wow, this got ugly fast.
I would hope that we can talk about the differences between the United States and Scandanavian countries without immediately jumping to cries of racism.
Don't get me wrong, the real racists out there should be condemned.

I am interested in understanding more about the various social programs in place in Scandanavian countries and the pros and cons of implementing them in the US.

As an aside, are you saying that anyone who wants a small government is a racist?
Do you think all libertarians are racist?

Matt

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Don Wharton <[address removed]> wrote:
Exactly!  The 'small government' meme is specifically a racist dog whistle telling people about an intent to insure that non-white races will not be receiving benefits from the government.  We need to repeat this info until it is fully understood.  The moral good is finding the optimal sized government which serves people in a balance way.  And obviously America is also a resource rich country. 
http://www.thenation.com/article/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/

 You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”

Don


Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies
From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Date: Thu, 24 Mar[masked]:47:17 -0400



Why is that?  Is it because voters refuse to allow it when they do not consider the overall population to be like themselves or is it because homogeneous populations are a requisite for it to work?  The answer should be obvious.  Homogeneous populations are irrelevant in all respects except for its negative impact on the willingness of voters to allow it.

On Mar 24, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Tom Fields <[address removed]> wrote:

That's interesting.  But what works in small, resource-rich countries with homogeneous populations may not work everywhere.  

Tom

From: "Don Wharton" <[address removed]>
To: "atheists-27" <[address removed]>
Sent: Thursday, March 24,[masked]:31:40 AM
Subject: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies





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