---------- Original Message ----------
From: Paul Stearns <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution
Date: Mon, 18 May[masked]:41:03 -0400

Thanks Doug. Could you elaborate on how the Barbary Wars are analogous to the current conflict? Weren't the Barbary pirates motivated primarily by ransom, not ideology? And weren't the Barbary wars settled by negotiation? Didn't Jefferson end up paying some tribute? 

The Barbary Wars were two wars fought at different times over the same reasons between the United States of America and the Barbary states (the de jure Ottoman Empire possessions of, but de facto independent,Tunis, Algiers, and Tripoli) of North Africa in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. If ships of a given country failed to pay, pirates would attack the ship and take their goods, and often enslave crew members or hold them for ransom. When Thomas Jefferson became President he refused to pay tribute and sent a United States Naval fleet to the Mediterranean; they bombarded the various fortified pirate cities, ultimately extracting concessions of fair passage from their rulers. Both the administrations of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison undertook actions against the Barbary States at different times. Jefferson led the first, from 1801 to 1805, against pirates' cities in what are today Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria. Madison directed forces for the second war in 1815.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars

https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/first-barbary-war

 

Can you also write more about how our choices are surrender or violent death? I'm sure you mean the violent death of the Islamic extremists but I still don't really follow. Are those really the only choices? Didn't containment end up working pretty well for the U.S. in the Cold War? 

Those are the choices offer us by some islamists.  There may be other choices offered by others.
In the cold war, you did not have a lot of suicide bombers, unlike today where there seems to be a fair amount of support for suicide bombing, depending up on country.  In Gaza, according to a 2014 Pew Poll I linked earlier, there is about 63% support for suicide bombers. 

 

And let's say total extermination of the extremists is the only way to bring victory, is that a realistic strategy?

I am open to all suggestions that would solve the problem of islamism.

Will a political consensus ever be gathered for such a strategy? Does the U.S. have the staying power for that type of war?

911 was a pretty big hit.  The number of Jews and muslims in this country are roughly equivilent.  Statistics suggest more hate crimes against Jews than against muslims.  If we get another big hit, the mood may change.  A recent attempt by ISIS affiliates was thwarted a couple of weeks ago in 
Texas at a cartoon contest.


What evidence can you point to showing that a strategy of extermination is effective?

I don't have any.  It was your suggestion for the sake of argument, not mine.


Most of the "experts" I've read say that for every terrorist we kill, two are created. 

One wonders how many terrorists Obama has created.  He seems to be killing a fair number of muslims.

 

Can you also apply your "total defeat" paradigm to the recent outbreaks of peace in Ireland and South Africa, or are those not comparable? 

Ireland was not well known for suicide bombers.  I won't claim to be particularly knowledgeable about either of those conflicts.  What do you suggest.  If you have a cure, you can do a lot of good for the world by sharing it and saving a lot of lives.

 

Thanks.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

Thomas Jefferson's response to Islamic extremism was to launch two wars.  That solved the problem of islamic attacks on American shipping and enslavement and ransoming of Americans.  At least for a while.

I would prefer a nice peaceful world, where we are all free to live a life of spiritual and intellectual fullfilment, free from violence and oppression.  The choice the islamists give us is surrender to islam, or die by the sword.  There does not seem to be a whole lot of middle ground in those choices.  People are free to make those choices.  I choose not to accept any of those choices.

It would seem that it is civil to accuse Israel of war crimes and worse and morally support her enemies.

It would also seem that it is deemed uncivil here to defend Israel and object to anti-Israel propaganda.  If this is to be the definition of uncivil, then so be it.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Paul Stearns <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution

Date: Mon, 18 May[masked]:04:16 -0400

Doug--I am coming into this late and am somewhat reluctant to join in but in your view what is the ultimate solution to Islamic extremism? 

 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 18, 2015, at 2:54 PM, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

I will admit to using the derogatory phrase of "muslim jihadi nutjob" towards that not so small minority of muslims that have expressed a desire to destroy Israel and kill all of the Jews, leaving the rest of us to be killed unless we surrender to islam.  What would you good people suggest would be a civil term for someone who wants to kill me?  I can't help but consider them to be somewhat less than civil and respectful.  But I may be possibly overly sensitive.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Paul Brown <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution
Date: Mon, 18 May[masked]:08:18 -0400

 

With our goal being civil and respectful discussion, it is not surprising that we are deeply disappointed when we fail to achieve it. Maybe we should look at this as an ongoing pursuit in which we are sometimes successful and sometimes fall short. I hope that when we do fall short, that will not discourage us too much or dissuade us from taking part in future discussions, knowing that some of them will be immensely rewarding and some frustratingly masochistic. I'm sure we're not the first Philosophy group to encounter occasional problems.

"Thrasymachus, instead of replying to me, said: Tell me, Socrates, have you got a nurse?

Why do you ask such a question, I said, when you ought rather to be answering?

Because she leaves you to snivel, and never wipes your nose: she has not even taught you to know the shepherd from the sheep." Plato, The Republic

Paul

 

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution
Date: Mon, 18 May[masked]:35:19 -0400

 

This is starting to feel masochistic. 

 

1.    Current Islamic animosity towards Jews is relatively recent.  There is long history of tolerance towards other religions under Islamic rule.  At the same time, there has been a "convert or else" ethos within Islam, but that is/was not specifically directed at Jews.

2.    Attempting to get a balanced, truthful understanding of the history of a situation is not "supporting" any side.

3.    No one on this thread has every advocated genocide, and you have refused to provide any clarity on you accusations.

4.    No one on this thread has advocated any jhaid against Israel.

5.    You steadfastly refuse to acknowledge any role by Israel or the US in at least exacerbating the hostilities:  all black and white.

6.    You most certainly did solicit comments on your position by contributing to this email thread.  We all signed on of our own choice.  You have not been forced to contribute or to continue to contribute.

 

When in the course of a supposed dialogue, one party utter refuses to acknowledge the input from others, they are being disrespectful.  I don't think that I can find anything more to contribute to this one-sided dialogue; I am not a masochist.

 

John
 

---

From: Doug K <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, May 18,[masked]:30 AM
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution

Islam has been at war since its founder Mohammed slaughtered Jews in the first wars of conquest. There are many peaceful muslims who seem to be perfectly happy to live their own lives. However, a sizeable minority support jihad. There are 1.2 billion muslims. If 1% support jihad, that is 12 million. The 2014 Pew Poll that I linked to, and that apparently no one bothered to read, found that some 63% of the muslims in Gaza supported suicide bombing. Since they don't have any declared enemies other than Israel, it is reasonably safe to assume that they support suicided bombing against Israel.

As I previously linked to, the Hamas charter advocates the genocide / extermination of Jews, just as Hitler and the Nazis advocated the genocide / extermination of Jews. The Nazis succeeded in wiping out 6,000,000 Jews plus a lot of Christians, Gypsies and others who were deemed unfit to exist. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with and was an ally of Hitler, and was also an advocate of solving the "Jewish problem." He even supplied muslim troops to fight the Allies in WWII. His side lost, and the state of Israel was formed after WWII.

The muslims have launched a number of wars against Israel, with the expressed intent of killing the Jews and driving Israel into the sea. That they have not succeeded is because the Jews have so far successfully defended themselves. At least one in this thread argues that since genocide has not been completed, this does not matter, or something.

The Nazis in WWII committed genocide. Those who supported the Nazis and Germany supported those who committed genocide. The muslim jihadis support genocide of the Jews. Those who support the muslim jihadis are supporting genocide of the Jews.

Muslim statements advocating the genocide of Jews have been dismissed here as mere political rhetoric. This is the same political rhetoric made by the Nazis.

When I get an email from you people making statements supporting the muslims in their jihad against Israel, like it or not, I defend Israel.

Genocide is not civil. War is not civil. Those of you supporting the jihadis bent genocide can hardly make a claim of civility.

You can make snide remarks about my percieved lack of intelligence, education, and civility all you want. I will still stand with Israel. You are perfectly free to exercise your freedom speech to support the destruction of Israel all you want. It would seem that the Socratic method is incapable of forming a rational position as to the future of Israel.

Your anti-Israel pro jihadi comments were sent to me. I did not solicit those comments.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Word Warrior Mama <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution
Date: Mon, 18 May[masked]:52:37 -0400

Just now saw this and I have no desire to participate in personal recriminations or

ad hominem attacks, nor do I feel any need to defend myself against what are

obviously at a logical level baseless accusations. I'll continue to assume everyone 

here is adult and capable of sincere intellectual discussion, which is what I joined 

the group for.

 

As far as Doug's assertions, I'll merely offer two links:

 

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101

 

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/2014-08-03/gazas-bottle-rockets

 

Peace, Gail

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Jon Anderson <[address removed]> wrote:

Hear hear!

Jon

 

============================

 

If there is a problem and you can't do anything about it, why be upset? If there is a problem and you can do something about it, why be upset?

On May 17, 2015, at 13:25, John Hubbling <[address removed]> wrote:

 

The purpose of this group, as I understand it, is to engage in dialogue, yet there is very little if any effort to assure that participants are educated and guided to assure that there is some general consistency and understanding as to just what dialogue consists and doesn't consist of.  So...at this point, anything I suggest in this vein would just be my opinion, I guess?  Apart from issues of civility (respect, due consideration, etc.), I believe that dialogue has to involve a dedication to assuring that communication has occurred, that words are being used to mean the same thing, that ideas can be and are challenged on the basis of factual support and internal consistency, that factuality is the only basis on which to assert or challenge ideas.  I believe that dialogue (Socratic?) does not consist of continually repeating the same assertions/opinions in the same words over and over again; does not consist of simply ignoring the words and counter points raised and repeating ones self as if reciting a mantra.

 

When, these, or some other basic standards of dialogue are being violated, the purpose/basis of the group will fall apart unless there is some form of authoritative moderation that is imposed.  That being said, actually performing such moderation (moderator) effectively is/can be tricky and uncomfortable.  Yet, many forums of my acquaintance are moderated quite successfully.  I believe that for such moderation to be effective, the so-called ground rules ("understandings") must be stated very clearly and accepted up front, and ongoing enforcement must be swift and consistent.

 

As far as the current email exchanges:  Doug keeps using the word "support" as a lead in to "genocide".  But, support does not have to mean black and white.  Many challenges to a one sided view of the Palestinian/Israeli situation have been presented but no rebuttal has occurred; just a repetition of the same black and white assertions.  And, of course, there is a lack of civility.  This is not dialogue.  If the world were black and white, there would be no need for dialogue.  Some folks see the world with no shades of gray and in their world, everything is polarized; you are either on one side or the other.  These folks quite naturally do not participate in dialogue; that would be meaningless.  They are involved in conversion:  bring others from the wrong side to the right side.  This they are entitled to do, but....not in a setting where the ostensible purpose is Socratic dialogue.

 

John
 

---

From: Jon Anderson <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sunday, May 17,[masked]:17 AM
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution

This has become tiresome. At the very least might we refrain from hyperbole and name calling?

Jon

 

============================

 

If there is a problem and you can't do anything about it, why be upset? If there is a problem and you can do something about it, why be upset?

On May 16, 2015, at 15:12, Doug K <[address removed]> wrote:

The representatives of the muslim jihadi nutjobs in the UN outnumber and outvote the representative of Israel.  The UN is not made up of representatives of the people of the world, but of the governments of the world, some of which are really awful places to live.

If you support the muslim jihadi nutjobs bent on the extermination of the Jews, you are supporting the extermination of the Jews.

 

If you follow the news at all, Iran has called for the extermination of the Jews and of Israel, not to mention the USA.  Iran is a government of muslim jihadi nutjobs supporting the palestinian muslim jihadi nutjobs.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Paul Brown <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution
Date: Sat, 16 May[masked]:55:36 -0400

 

From Amnesty International:
The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory (the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip) is in its fifth decade and the undercurrent of violence and inherent abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law inherent in any long-standing military occupation is presented by both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of the violence in the region.
 
From The U.N. General Assembly:
Affirming that the transfer by the occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies constitutes a breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Noting that the International Court of Justice concluded that �the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law�,
Aware that Israeli settlement activities involve, the transfer of nationals of the occupying Power into the occupied territories, the confiscation of land, the displacement of Palestinian families, the exploitation of natural resources and other actions against the Palestinian civilian population and the civilian population in the occupied Syrian Golan that are contrary to international law.
Expressing grave concern about the continuation by Israel, the occupying Power, of settlement activities in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, in violation of international humanitarian law.
Expressing grave concern in particular about Israel�s construction and expansion of settlements in and around occupied East Jerusalem, the continuing demolition of Palestinian homes and eviction of Palestinian families from the city, the revocation of Palestinian residency rights in the city, and ongoing settlement activities in the Jordan Valley.
Expressing grave concern about the continuing unlawful construction by Israel of the wall inside the Occupied Palestinian Territory.
Gravely concerned about the rising incidents of violence, harassment, provocation and incitement by illegal armed Israeli settlers in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.
Demands that Israel, the occupying Power, comply with its legal obligations.
 

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution
Date: Sat, 16 May[masked]:20:29 -0400

Israel was formed by the UN.  Immediately war was declared by neighboring muslim countries and the palestinians were invited to leave and then come back after the Jews were slaughtered.  The ones that left were rightfully not allowed to return.  The ones that stayed are Israeli citizens with full rights and participation in Israeli government.  They have far more freedom and opportunity than other muslims in the area, especially the women.

If you support those who would commit genocide on the Jews, you are supporting genocide.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: John Hubbling <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution
Date: Fri, 15 May[masked]:55:33 -0400

Try as I might, seems I can't stay out of this tread:

 

One of the most blatantly ignored histories (as well as one grossly covered up in movies and other propaganda) is just how the Jews ended up with what is now called Israel.  The Jews were terrorists in every modern sense long before the Palestinians.  One should learn how the "Palestinians" came to be evicted from their own land - they are the Palestinians.  I in no way condone terrorist acts from any side, but ignoring the root causes of such behavior does not create a level playing field.  In time, all successful terrorists become freedom fighters and founding fathers.

 

John

---

From: Doug K <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, May 15,[masked]:10 PM
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution

I find it difficult to have a whole lot of sympathy for Palestinians whose stated goal is the genocide of Jews and the utter destruction of Israel, who commit actual war crimes by using their own civilians, men, women and children as human shields to hide behind while they fire missles into Israel with the intent of committing that genocide.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Word Warrior Mama <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] Violence: The Solution
Date: Fri, 15 May[masked]:04:15 -0400

Yes Paul, I agree Ireland is a great example. Also for noting that peoples engaged in war who don't have great money or arms and so have to fight war situations unconventionally (guerrilla) get labeled "terrorist." That label is often used as an alternative to "side with little power." Like Palestinians.

Gail

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