Deep Conversations

This main event is from Philosophers and Gamblers: https://www.meetup.com/philosophers-and-gamblers/events/309549324/?slug=philosophers-and-gamblers&isFirstPublish=true

Why do the greatest rebels in myth steal fire, knowledge, or heaven itself—and end up chained, cast down, or burned alive?
This week, we dive into two of the most iconic rebel figures in history:
🔹 Prometheus — the Titan who stole fire from the gods to empower mankind. Prometheus was a Titan. Older than the gods.
He looked at humanity—cold, weak, afraid—and did the unthinkable:
> He stole fire from Olympus and gave it to mankind.
That wasn’t just heat or light. It was a symbol of knowledge, power, tech, and self-determination. The gods wanted humans to stay small. Prometheus said:
> “No. They deserve more.”
So what happened?

• Zeus chained him to a rock.
• Every day, an eagle came to eat his liver.
• Every night, it grew back.
• Eternal punishment.

> Why? Because he loved humans more than he feared the gods.
Prometheus is the archetype of moral rebellion:
> “There is a law deeper than Zeus. And I will suffer for it.”
That’s not just defiance. That’s sacred defiance.
🔹 Lucifer — the Morning Star, who defied divine authority and was cast into Hell. In the oldest tellings, Lucifer is the Morning Star, the brightest celestial being—second only to God. But that brightness becomes his downfall.
He doesn’t fall because he’s evil.
He falls because he questions the order.
“I will not serve.”
That’s the core line.
Lucifer looks at the divine hierarchy, at blind obedience, at God’s plan—and says:
> “Why should I bow? I am powerful. I am beautiful. I will rise on my own.”
He rebels.
He falls.
But here’s the trick: he doesn’t vanish.
He becomes the accuser, the tester, the tempter—the one who forces you to prove your free will and your moral clarity.
What links them isn’t just rebellion. It’s moral clarity in the face of authoritarian power. Both act not out of chaos, but out of conviction. They don’t destroy out of hate—they disobey out of love, pride, or principle.
They defy a system because they believe in something higher than power:
🔥 Truth
🔥 Dignity
🔥 Freedom
🔥 The human potential itself
Are these figures villains, heroes, or tragic warnings?
Are they symbols of ego and pride—or of selfhood and awakening?
Do they reveal something eternal about the human condition?

Most people have been told from childhood to not judge another person, group or culture on the grounds that they are different, and that tolerance is a virtuous thing, often believing that tolerance will bring a sense of inclusivity, diversity, and harmony.

However, many people dare not venture into the dark realm of tolerance, fearing that they might get labeled as xenophobic, racist, sexist, bigot.

I argue that if stereotypes are true, then it should not be ignored. I believe some people practicing certain values within certain cultures should absolutely be discriminated and not tolerated for sake of retaining one's own culture and people.

In this meeting we will be discussing why tolerance is seen as a cultural ideal and how people are affected negatively without examining the consequences of the dark sides of tolerance.

Questions:
1. Why is tolerance often seen as a good thing?
2. Is it true that tolerance often create an accepting and upbeat atmosphere?
3. Is diversity always a good thing?
4. Are stereotypes true? If so, then what?
5. Is judgment good or bad? Examples of different situations?
6. Should there be some boundaries on tolerance?
7. How do we decide what to and not to tolerate?
8. Is pattern recognition discrimination?
9. When is it ok to discriminate?
10. Can there be healthy discriminations? Examples?
11. What's the moral thing to do when facing an intolerant person, group, or culture?
12. What are some historical and modern examples of tolerance of diversity gone right? (How did it go?)
13. What are examples in history and modern times where tolerance of diversity gone wrong? (How did it go?)
14. Why is tolerating differences considered a virtue?
15. What are some underlying reasons for intolerance on individual and societal level?
16. Is our world more tolerant of differences than before? If yes, how so? If no, why not?
17. Should we trust our gut instincts?
18. How do we determine when to listen to our gut instincts and when to take risks?
19. Are there evolutionary biological reasons for tribalism?
20. Are there evolutionary biological reasons for altruism?
21. What does human nature have to do with tolerance and discrimination?
22. Is it foolhardy to fight against human nature in the hopes of creating a better world through tolerance?
23. What happened to those completely pacifist societies in human history?
24. Can warfare and other types of human conflicts ever be eradicated? If so, how? If not, why?
25. Should highly diverse and immigrated countries liked the United States, Canada, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand discriminate who should they let in and who to keep out?
26. Is ICE doing the right things according to the law?
27. How do you feel about open border policies? Modern examples of how it's working out in different parts of the world?
28. Is it true that a country, empire, civilization is only good when you can defend it?
29. Have we gone too far in efforts to instill high levels of intolerance while not analyzing the negative impacts on societies?
30. Why is the notion that we ought to discriminate in certain circumstances so controversial?

Guidelines:

• Hand raises are required.
• There will be a 3 minute timer for every person. However, in this group, I do allow a brief back and fourth interjection from others if it's something that's related to the person who was just speaking. This is a way to prevent the group from feeling too "robotic" in style and get your pressing question asked to the speaker and get the answer right away without waiting all the way back to your turn again.
• Be authentic & civil!
• Please refrain from using Ad Hominem (personal) attacks. Instead, please attack the points from others.
• Severe Ad Hominem such as racist behavior will result in being removed from the meeting.

Zoom link will be posted 10 minutes before the meeting.