Morality Discussion: Can eating meat be morally justified?

Passcode: 33

This debate/discussion will be the conclusion of this series of whether eating meat is morally justifiable. But based on prior discussions everyone has agreed that conditions for factory farmed animals should not be made worse, but unfortunately there is legislation in the US House of Reps currently that would do so. If you feel strongly about this issue and and live in the US, please contact your HOUSE REP (through website is easiest) with the following message (and send this to others who may do the same):

The House Agriculture Committee Bill, H.R. 7567 the Farm, Food, and National Security Act of 2026, has provisions in it that would preempt state laws like those of California’s Proposition 12, the “Prevention of Cruelty to Farm Animals Act” in its aim of setting minimum space standards in confinement of breeding pigs (24 square feet, ex. 6ft by 4ft) and veal calves (43 square feet). These state laws disallow pork and veal meat from being sold in their state if they do not comply with these minimum standards. These are minimum standards for these animals to be able to lie down in a normal manner, fully extend limbs and turn around.

I have never met a person who thinks that conditions on factory farms should be made worse for animals. Please fight against Section 12006 “Ensuring the free movement of livestock-derived products in interstate commerce” of this Omnibus Bill.

FOR SENATORS USE THIS:
The House Agriculture Committee Bill, H.R. 7567 the Farm, Food, and National Security Act of 2026, Section 12006, has provisions in it that would preempt state laws like those of California’s Proposition 12, the “Prevention of Cruelty to Farm Animals Act” in its aim of setting minimum space standards for confinement of breeding pigs (24 square feet, ex. 6ft by 4ft) and veal calves (43 square feet). These state laws disallow pork and veal meat from being sold in their state if they do not comply with these minimum standards. These are minimum standards for these animals to be able to lie down in a normal manner, fully extend limbs and turn around. I have never met a person who thinks that conditions on factory farms should be made worse for animals.

When developing a corresponding Senate Bill, instead of preempting these reasonable state regulations, please advocate for the minimum requirements on confined breeding pigs and veal calves in California’s Proposition 12 to be made a national standard.

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We are done with our Series of Debates/Discussions relating to whether a Supreme Mind exists. We are now going to shift topics to Morality. We will start with Brother Mike's idea for a 3 event series:

3-26-26 Discussion: What rights should animals have? We developed a foundational way to think about this and that was that animals should not be subject to unnecessary suffering. What is necessary? A choice on what to eat involves tradeoffs. Under factory farming animals are subject to terrible conditions and everyone agreed that within these parameters animals were subject to immense and unnecessary suffering that could and should in large part be mitigated. From there views diverged with some believing that a vegan diet was necessitated because no animal should be born raised and killed just so that someone could eat meat. Others believed that the more important calculus to consider was the overall quality of life of the animals being raised. We talked about this in the context of the Veil of Ignorance, which begged the question what world would you create if you didn't know where in it you would land (i.e. would you be a cow, human etc.). So that if you were raised as a farm animal would you be okay with where you landed? Or would you rather not exist? Once we have reached that threshold (according to some) then the unnecessary suffering has ceased (because there is no net suffering as you would choose to exist rather than not). Personally, I think this is the case with bison, because they live a relatively long life under domestication (they aren't killed as babies) and they are allowed to roam freely, so can get exercise unlike a cow stuck in a little cage all day. So under a veil of ignorance I may be willing to accept coming to the world as a domesticated bison as opposed to not existing at all (But I'm not saying I want to trade).

4-2-26 Discussion 2: What should be the limits of how humans may consume or utilize animals? We discussed nature and how by law it was a brutal place and humans evolved in this environment, in a way we are a product of nature and evolution, but along with that we have developed cognitive abilities that allow us to think more than strictly about survival and to do things like consider how we treat other species in accomplishing our ends (on the flip side we have developed the ability to commit great atrocities). We thought that no animal should be put in a life that (if given the conscious ability to make its own choice) it would choose to not exist rather than exist because the pain it would endure in life would be greater than the suffering. Therefore, we should make decisions that lessen the suffering of animals (or increase their pleasure) in our day to day decisions as to what we consume. This may include eating different types of food (meat vs. non meat) or if deciding to eat meat to eat animals that have a higher quality of life while alive. But this also could influence what we should do in our non-food decisions like the type of place we live in, products we buy etc. So not so much limits, but a decision framework was developed.

3: Can eating meat be morally justified?

Overall, In this series we discuss great questions of philosophy. You could call what we are doing debate style or open forum, but participants are free to give their ideas and challenge others while discussing the topic of the week. Each week I will choose from one of hundreds of topics such as: are humans innately good or evil, what makes us human, did you exist before you were born, and does god (a supreme mind) exist. I think a Socratic method/critical analysis of questions where each assumption held on a particular topic is questioned to dig deeper is a good way to make progress.

The Zoom link will be posted shortly before the event. I have installed a timer in Zoom, so a timer will start automatically when you start speaking, I am setting a 3 minute time limit on each speaker. Once a speaker talks anyone can follow up with a counter point, question, or continuing thought along the same line of thought (leave such comments to 1 minute). But do not begin a new train of thought unless you raise your hand. I will set a 5 minute timer for all follow up to an original speaker.