Danielle Bayard Jackson taught high school English for six years, where she learned a thing or two about coaching people through interpersonal issues. Now, as a certified friendship coach, Danielle helps adults improve their overall wellbeing by teaching them how to make new connections and create more depth in their relationships. She and David chat about why adult friendships are a necessity, not a luxury. From there, they dive into parents modeling healthy friendships for their kids, how to be more intentional with social plans, and the often overlooked value of loose ties.
Ranked as one of the top 25 CEO podcasts on Feedspot, Keep Connected with Meetup CEO David Siegel is a podcast about the power of community. For more details on other episodes, visit Keep Connected on the Meetup Community Matters blog.
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Friendship Advice for Every Life Stage
In this episode, we talked to Danielle Bayard Jackson, a Certified Friendship Coach. You might be wondering, “What is that?” You are about to find out. After this episode, you may be looking for one yourself. Happy friending.
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Danielle Bayard Jackson, I am so excited to have you here.
I am excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
Who is Danielle Bayard Jackson? You are all wondering. The answer is she is a Certified Friendship Coach, experienced publicist, and overall awesome human being. I am glad you are on the show. The first question is, I have heard of career coaches, life coaches, and baseball coaches but a friendship coach? Explain. How common is this? You are a friendship coach, and you are certified. Talk to me.
It is funny because whenever I tell people what it is that I do, I always get that side-eye like, “Sweetie, get a real job.” I understand the suspicion. I was a high school English teacher for six years, and I was working with 11th and 12th graders. I did not know at that time that when they were coming to me between classes or after school, I was coaching them through their issues. When I left to get into public relations, I thought foolishly, “I am leaving that drama behind with the kids because I am working with adults now.” That is the expectation but in reality, I realized we are struggling, too.
I realized that no matter what stage of adulthood or life you are in, you are always trying to navigate platonic relationships as well. I took my education background. I became certified as a coach, and now I serve as a Friendship Coach. That means people come to me with anything from issues making friends, wanting to have a hard conversation with a friend or wondering how they can create more depth in their relationships.
That is definitely needed for sure. Were you one of these people that are such a friendly person? Were you always super friendly or were you shy at one point?
The reason why I am effective as a friendship coach is because I used to be such a bad friend. I know what it is like to be a mean girl, exclusive, over-sensitive, or to ghost people, especially in high school, so because of that experience, I know what the consequences are. I am almost operating as the Ghost of Christmas Future, and I am here to tell you, “Het your friendships together,” because I know what that looks like physically, mentally, and emotionally to not have strong quality relationships in your life. That motivates me to do what I do.
When did the mean girl start? Was it sixth grade? Do you hear that it starts in middle school or is it more in high school?
I was going to college and growing up a little bit, getting more secure with myself and realizing the importance of community, looking for what it is you want, kindness, and being a friend when I’ve got into this work seeing the impact of friendship on our mental, physical, and emotional health helped as well.
We really can’t afford not to make the time for friends.
Why are there not more friendship coaches out there? Friendship coaches have been needed as long as friendships have been needed. Friendships have been needed for thousands of years. You would think that many people are using friendship coaches. Maybe they are going to therapists, and that helps them around that but they do not have the expertise that someone like you has. What has taken so long?
In the social sciences, everything else gets respect but friendship is still seen as very fluffy. That is turning now. Friendship is having a moment but it is still seen as fluffy. I do not get it because if you have a business as an entrepreneur, it is a wise decision when you go and get a business coach. If you are struggling in your marriage and you go and get counseling, we are like, “That is so great for you, guys.” If you are struggling with friends, it is almost laughable. I wonder if it is because the extent of the public discourse around friendship is you either have friends or you do not. If you do not, what is wrong with you?
It’s because of that, there is a lot of shame and embarrassment for adults to say either, “I do not have friends,” or a lot of my extroverted clients, “I have tons of friends but if I am being honest, I do not feel like connected to anybody. I wish it was more satisfying.” If there is this idea that you should have friendship down by the time you are an adult, we are not getting help, yet here we are talking about being in the midst of a loneliness epidemic. The two go hand in hand.
It takes a much greater level of vulnerability to say, “I have trouble making friends or keeping friends. I only have guy friends or girlfriends, and I am not sure why that is the case.” Let’s talk about an area of your specialty. You are a mom. You have two amazing kids. As a mom, talk about the challenge and what you see out there. There is so much to learn from you, specifically around moms.
First of all, hands down, the number one request that I get is, “How do I make friends?” It always comes with some qualifier, “How do I make friends as a military spouse, as an introvert or as a mom?” Moms are coming to me with that one because it’s so hard to “find time for friendship” when it seems like there are so many others pressing issues taking place, especially with kids. They depend on us to live and breathe. There is a lot of psychological and cognitive demand to be there.
With parents, I know especially for moms, we feel guilty about doing things for ourselves because we feel like a good mom should be totally all in on our kids. There is too much research that shows how critical a friendship is to your life in every way. If that is the case, why can’t we look at friendship more from a wellness perspective instead of a luxury? “I do not have time to go to brunch with friends.” It is more about going to brunch with friends. You need to spend time with people who care about you and support you so that you can be filled up. Also, our kids need to see us model what friendship looks like.
We are not doing them any favors to only be in the house and talk to them. They do not know what it looks like to have friends. We have to model that, not encourage them on the playground, “Go out there and make a friend.” What does that look like? Sometimes remembering that “I need this to fill me up. My whole family will be better for it. My children need to see what it looks like,” is important.
The biggest tip I give to moms is they need to rethink what it looks like to spend time with friends because I know the biggest complaint is, “I do not have time.” If we still have an idea that hanging out with friends looks like spending hours at brunch or going out at night, then you are going to make up your mind, “I do not have time for that.” Who said it has to look that way?
Maybe it looks like, “I am always doing laundry on Sunday nights, and I call up a friend while I am doing it,” or I am running errands with the kids, “Do you want to come with me while we do a quick grocery run?” I am spending time with my friend. It looks a little different than it used to but we can’t have that umbrella excuse of, “I do not have time for friendship.” We can’t afford not to, to make the time.
The whole idea of being a positive influence on your kids is not just saying but doing. I have three kids that are older than your kids, and you see the importance of modeling. It starts young. Kids pick up on everything and see everything. You want your kids to have functional relationships and to see that value being an important value in you as well. I love that.
The other thing that I love that you said is finding a path. Laundry, cleaning dishes, and going for a walk, you are pushing your kid in a stroller for a walk. There could be another new mom who also wants to push a stroller on a walk. Many of these things are applicable for new dads as well. It is important for everyone to realize that. It is an important thing because depression is real. Depression is chemically-induced real at times for some people, and friendships help so many people during this particularly trying time in people’s lives.
There is mounting research that confirms the same thing. In fact, it is revealed that the single greatest determining factor on your overall well-being and life satisfaction is not your income or your marital status. It is the quality of your relationships. I screamed that over and over. If that is going to impact, at the end of the day, the quality of my life and how satisfied I am, I have to be intentional about that. As parents, we want to a quality life, we want to live long, and we want to thrive for our kids. We have to start seeing friendship as an important ingredient for that.
You are the friend expert. How are you at maintaining your friends? What do you do well, and what do you struggle with yourself around that as a mom?
People do not ask me about myself. They are like, “Give me the tips.” I am doing better because you can’t be in this line of work and see this research and things play out and then not apply it. I know what the harm will be. The biggest thing is sometimes we overestimate how good we are at this. We see friendship as a natural thing but as unsexy as it is like, “We’ve got to get it on the calendar.” I am forgetful. You have got kids in the whole thing. Even little things, for example, if I have a friend and I am chatting with her and she says, “I have got this appointment next week.”
I am putting her on speakerphone, and as she is talking, I am putting a note on my phone for next Tuesday at 4:00 PM. The note says, “Ask her how it went.” When Tuesday at 4:00 PM, I am like, “How did that appointment go?” She is like, “It went well, thank you for remembering.” I am like, “Totally.” It is the little things because I do not trust myself.
That is a whole other level of, “You take these notes down for your friends.”
I have to, and we have to. We have to do things like that, so they feel seen, and it keeps us in touch. It leaves that emotional impression of like, “She cares about me.” They do the same for me but I do not trust future Danielle to make it happen and to remember. I have to make plans and intentional things for the future, Danielle because she might forget.
Are most of the things you do by phone or do you do some in-person things as well, Danielle?
The single greatest determining factor on your overall wellbeing and life satisfaction is not your income or your marital status. It’s the quality of your relationships.
As a matter of fact, I know this sounds cheesy but Galentine’s Day is my Superbowl. When it was Galentine’s Day, it had been a while, I was pregnant, so I was finally able to get out, and I invited ten friends that I love. I brought them together and bought dinner for them. I had somebody come and serenade them. My idea was that you could even have romance and friendship, which means wooing and pursuing. We all want to feel desired even in platonic relationships.
That is why we get upset when we feel like, “I am initiating more than my friends,” because you want to feel desired, too. We all want that. It was one day of like, “Let me lay it on you.” One friend said, “What are you, my boyfriend?” I was like, “Today. Yes, I am.” Making them feel good and say, “What can I do to keep pouring into that bucket? I do not know when I will have time to come hang out for hours again but how can I do a little event to show I love you?” They appreciated it. It felt good to me. It is one of those things that keep our friendship going.
All the gals reading this, if you do not do Galentine’s Day, consider it because that is a fun thing. I do not know if there is a Guyentine’s Day but I will have to find out. Maybe there is not because of too many days or Guyentine’s Days. Galentine’s Day sounds so great. I am going to encourage my wife to do that. Question for you, there is a community show, and so much of what we do at Meetup is about building community.
You referenced it about the community of ten women that you’ve got together for Galentine’s Day. That is an amazing example. Anyways, in which you work with your clients, and you encourage them around using community and finding groups, talk about how a community can be helpful in terms of adult friends for moms, not for moms. Any way you want to take it.
We hear it all the time. We know the research. We know that community is important but I know that sometimes people are like, “How do I find this? How do I create this?” I am specifically a women’s friendship coach. I get into the research around women. One difference between male and female friendships is that women tend to have these dyadic relationships. A lot of times, it is one-to-one but for men, there are multiple people. I have a lot of female clients who will say to me, “My husband has this big group, and I want that a big group of friends.” We will talk about why that is but they are expressing that they want a community with multiple people where they feel like they belong.
There are a lot of different ways to achieve that. The first thing could be I am always recommending Meetup. I always tell them that this is one way to get plugged in. Even if you find a group that is large and you think, “This is too big for me.” Oftentimes, there are subgroups that form within that group. You will find your 2 to 3 people within that group who you bond with but you have got to get plugged in that way. I know there is a fear of rejection. That is very real, I understand but in the same way we fear that there is rejection on the other side, there is an equal chance for acceptance and for people to love on you and bring you in.
You can form your own community. If you are thinking to yourself, “I have a lot of friends but I have these siloed friendships.” Why not send a group text to everyone and say like, “I am inviting you all over for a glass of wine or come hang out at the park on Sunday.” Take all those silos and bring them together one time. They might hit it off. They may not but if you want that community feel, there are plenty of opportunities to get plugged in. Also, be empowered to initiate and make it happen yourself. Experiment and see what happens.
You point around dyadic communities for women. I have not read research on it. I am confident that that is the case because you said it, and in general, there are women in my life who appreciate the one-on-one dialogue and the group one, not as much. When I talked to them about it, what they have said to me was they wanted to have a meaningful conversation. Oftentimes, we both know that when you have a broader group all talking at the same time, the conversation topics could end up turning into talking about your kids or more broad conversation topics, the weather, COVID, and how COVID is affecting you for the one-millionth to talk about.
When you have one-on-one type dialogues, that is when you could have deep bonding. To some extent, not to stereotype it and make sure because women oftentimes do want that deep bonding and less superficial reality perhaps than sometimes the broader men conversation. They are both important. This is my assumption. This is my hypothesis. Anything to the hypothesis at all or am I wrong?
You are totally on it. That is why women’s friendships are known for being more intimate because we do have the one-on-one. We are talking, and we are getting to know each other as opposed to men who form these larger groups but then also are reporting that they experience less closeness in their friendships.
There is something to that connection there as well. Community is important, whatever that looks like to you. When it comes to getting involved with a group, I know sometimes people are saying they are looking for their best friend. I hear that a lot. According to the latest survey, 40% of adults say they do not have a best friend. I have some people who fixate on that, “I want that person.”
“This person has a best friend. That person has a best friend. My husband, my significant other, has a best friend. I want one, too.”
We all want that, and I get that but I always encourage is to try to zoom out for a second. What is important is that you feel seen, that you are challenged, and that you have laughter in your life. That is what’s important. If you are getting that from the collective of people in your life, that is important. If one person satisfies all of that, that is great but do not get so caught up in having it delivered by one person. Are you getting it generally?
That gets me to the question. Something I have been reading about is the power of loose ties and loose friendships. What is better? Is it better to have 2 or 3 best friends and you are shut out to the world besides those besties, which could lead to the mean girl or is it better to have not those close friends but a good 15 or 20 friends that we would not say are your “best friends,” but they are clearly friends? What is better?
It is not a matter of either/or. We need both. We need that person or people we feel very seen and connected to you but we also need people who we go to happy hour with once a month. They offer something to our lives as well. It is almost like seeing your life rounded out with this variety of people who offer different things. It is equally important. I know sometimes extroverts are like, “I have got ten best friends.” I am like, “Whatever.” We need those loose ties. We need close relationships as well. It is more of and as opposed to an either/or.
If you have ten best friends, you do not have any best friends. It depends on what the definition perhaps is. Which do you struggle with more?
I would like to think I am more of an extrovert, so I am quick to be like, “Hey girl,” and talk to somebody new and bring them in. For me, I have to make sure that I am intentional about pouring into my top 2 to 5, which is I have seen some extroverts who report feeling lonely more than introverts. I wonder if that is because they so emphasize going wide instead of going deep. We will go to a party, work the room, and we shook twenty hands but we left feeling like we did not connect with people.
Meanwhile, that introvert sat on the couch and talked to 2 people for 45 minutes. We have got to go deep. I have got both the loose ties and my close friends but I have to be mindful of, “Am I continually pouring into the closer friendships because that is what matters to me? On my time off, am I making sure to invest in touch bases with the others?”
Friendship is a slow, gradual, natural process of creating something meaningful with another person.
It comes down to what your natural disposition is, and because you are such a friendly person, that is your comfort zone. I know people quite like you that are so friendly. Some people I know are close to a person but they never see and talk to them, even though they feel close because they are intentional about spending that extra time. That is important to be that intentional. People enjoy stories, and we have talked about you. Is there a client or is there a story that you could share about the challenge that she had and how she was able to overcome that challenge?
I work with a lot of introverts. First, let me say, when people have a picture in their mind of somebody who hires a friendship coach, we picture the socially awkward wallflower. While that person is still on my roster, they would be surprised to know that a lot of the people I work with are very high-achieving, charismatic, smart, and funny people. It is because they approach the rest of their life very strategically. They are trying to do that about their friendships as well. I want to throw that out there because some of my clients are very like, “I am in awe.”
Of those women and those clients, one that sticks out to me is an introvert. She came to me because she said she has two people she sits with at lunch. It is out of routine. She is not totally satisfied being there but she is too shy to go out and try to strike up anything new. She is tired of the same thing every day but also does not have the courage to go and venture out and get more of what would actually satisfy her. We worked together for a while, and I had to help her understand that you do not have to be a different person to make friends. I hear that a lot from introverts like, “I want more friends but I can’t do all the talking to strangers and all that. That is not my thing.”
We worked together for about a month and a half. It is funny because during our last session together, she received a text from this group that she wanted to be a part of and was doing all our steps with, talking, and all these strategies we came up with. It was nice because the last session that we had together while we were talking, her phone beeped, and she looked. She had an invitation from this group saying like, “You have got to come with us to the XYZ event.”
It is because she put herself out there. She was herself. She did not have expectations of being invited. She wanted to connect with other people but because of her friendliness and some of the strategies we went over, they wanted her to be a part of what they had going on because she showed up as herself. She celebrated that victory because she felt like she made new friends while being her introverted self. That was one of the wins that I am very proud of.
You should be proud of that because when someone has to fake who they are, that is stressful, and that is not sustainable either. To be able to be your authentic self and find a way to have that be part of who you are but still get out there is a tough balance, especially for an introvert. That is a great story. You talked about work settings, and there are a lot of key milestones in life that a friendship coach and friendships, in general, could be trying for, whether it is moving to a new city or getting married, getting divorced or having a child.
All those life milestones pose challenges when it comes to friends. Is there any specific advice that you would have for people looking to make friends? Is it ever the right time to take a step back and say, “I am going to take three months. I am going to take months because I am new to this thing. I am going to a job. I am new to work. I am new to a new kid. I am going to take a break from friends.” That is the right approach or is it dangerous to do so because you can end up regretting it if you take a break or too long of a break during these life milestones times?
During these big milestone times, is when you need your network. Even though the inclination might be, “Let me pull away, work on myself, and go through this thing on my own and when I am good, I will plug back in.” If anything, that is when you need people who can check in on you and say like, “How is it going? Do you need me to help you move? How are you getting adjusted?”
I am glad that you said that because sometimes we do pull away, and on the surface, it is for a noble reason like, “I do not want to inconvenience my friends. I am working on myself. I do not want to put that on them.” That is something that is noble on its face but in reality, that is when you need your people. In terms of making friends and pouring into our friendships, we have to reframe what we think of what that looks like because if in our mind it is a big production, then we are going to say like, “I do not have time for that.”
If we see that making friends is the art of cultivating something meaningful with another person, that does not have to be a big show. It can be, “I make sure I am more approachable when I go out public.” That person who I have been thinking, “She is cool. He is cool.” I send a DM and try to get something going or send them something to get a little momentum but it is not something that has to start and be established the day that I decide to make friends. It is a slow, gradual, natural process of creating something meaningful with this other person.
In those moments, you are feeling like, “I am going through something big. Maybe I should pause my friendships.” It is something you should push away that temptation and see if you can plugin. If anything has that been a moment of vulnerability which we need in our friendships to say like, “I am going through it. I moved, and I am feeling isolated. Can we get a standing phone date every Tuesday night, so I know that I am talking to you?” Lean in, and you will be surprised at how eager people are to show up for you.
It is easy for people who are overwhelmed. People who are overwhelmed to say, “I would have to deprioritize this. It is too hard.” What you are saying is no. That is the time during these milestones when it might be too hard to lean in even further. You are right because it is self-talk to not to do something to have inertia is very powerful for so many people.
The last question for you, we have talked quite a bit about moms. We have not talked as much around non-moms. Share a bit about the unique challenges because my wife and I had kids at a young age, and many of our friends waited longer. I remember one of her friends saying to us that all of her friends had kids. It was harder for her because so many of her friends “moved on to the next stage,” which is a terrible thing to phrase. I hate that. For people that are not moms, there are a unique set of challenges as well that people go through. Any thoughts on that would be helpful as it relates to friendship.
If I had to rank like the top three things that my clients come to me for, that is one of them, “How do I maintain a friendship when we are in two different life stages?” Whether it is moms asking or non-moms asking like, “She was my girl but I do not get to see her. I feel guilty about asking for more time because I know she has got to do the things.” It is a common thing, and we should expect to see it more. Research tells us that more women are living alone than ever before. They are putting off getting married and doing their own thing. They are putting off having kids, which means we are going to see more and more single women doing their thing.
How do they form a community or stay connected to their mom’s friends? It sounds general but we keep going back to that word about being intentional. The thing that I see most in that situation that creates division are the assumptions we make for the other person. If I do not have kids and my friend has kids, I start to assume, “I am not going to invite her to this because I know she is at the kids. I am not going to call her because I know she has got things going on.” I see a lot of that. It causes a lot of friendships to die out because we think we know them so well, ironically, that we know what to do here. It is not true.
As the mom friend, we are like, “She will understand, so I am not going to reach out. I would have to bring my baby to brunch. They would not want that. I am not going to ask.” We make up a lot of interpretations that this other person’s time, capacity, and interests. We stopped communicating with the people closest to us. To even say as a single friend, “Girl, I miss you. What is going on? I know you’ve got the baby but can we have a Tuesday call?”
I am telling you that I miss you, and I do not feel bad about announcing that. As a mom, if I say, “I’ve got the kids, so I do not have time like I used to but can you join us on a walk? Can we catch up there, and you tell me about your date last night?” Communicating, “I miss you,” and even communicating fears, “I know you have got the mom thing going on but am I losing you? What is going on?” It can be playful. It does not have to be formal but communicating with each other during those times would be important to stay connected.
You will be proud of me. This is not a mom story but it is a communication related to a friendship story. I was talking to a friend and taking a walk with him. I said to him, “Ninety-nine percent of the time that we ever take a walk and do anything together, I initiate, and you never initiate. You should know that I do not take any offense at that because you are not an initiator. I do not hold it against you. I know to never expect you to initiate anything but I know you enjoy getting together.” He was like, “You are absolutely right.”
It’s really important for friends to stay connected.
A lot of times, people get frustrated because they are always the initiator. Maybe that is just their personality. Some people are not an initiator. It does not mean that they do not like you as much or they do not want to be your friend as much. It is their personality. I tend to initiate 80% to 90% of the things that I do with friends because that is my personality. Sometimes I think to myself, “Does everyone always get together without me, and they are always initiating things and never invite me?” I realized that no one does anything.
I am so glad that you do that. It speaks to you being a connector. You are a connector because if I had to rank those top 3 issues, 1 of them is, “I am always initiating, and my friends do not.” How you’ve got to that place of, “That is who I am. I am the guy who initiates.” Try to pay more attention to the people who say yes and stop fixating on, “But I started it. I did it first.” Are people eager to receive your invitation? Those are your people.
It might be true that in the ecosystem, that is your friendship. You have become the coordinator, and they show up but if it works for everybody and you guys have a good time when you are together, and these people have your back and support you, that is what matters. As much as we can take it from, “We will all reach out. If people say yes but it is their turn.” More of like an identity that we adopt of, “I am a connector, and when I want to connect, I do it.” Stop getting caught up in keeping tabs, which I know is hard because sometimes we want our friends to pick up the phone. If that is what it takes to stay in harmony with each other, then that is what we’ve got to do.
It is rapid-fire questions. Are you ready for rapid-fire time?
Let’s do it.
When’s the first time you saw yourself as a leader? I am guessing preschool.
In kindergarten when the kindergarten teacher was like, “Danielle, put your hand down and let other people have a chance to answer.”
If you could access a time machine to go anywhere at any time, where are you going?
I am going to keep it back to when I am still alive. I am going to say in the ‘90s. I miss the ‘90s, so some point when I was thriving and kicking as a young person in the ‘90s would be it.
What do you miss in the ‘90s?
All of our horrible fashion trends and all that silly stuff. Posters on the wall, your favorite crush.
Who is your big poster on the wall?
I do not know if you know who this is but Andrew Keegan. He was the heartthrob of the ‘90s and also at the Spice Girls, believe it or not.
Tell me one thing on your bucket list that you always wanted to do.
This is not a huge thing for some people but I downplay my birthday. I would like to have a big birthday bash at some fancy vineyard somewhere because I make it small. I would like to make a big thing of it. Maybe I will make that happen.
Last question, Danielle, you have many years ahead of you. What do you want to be remembered by?
I hope to hear women say in the future that their friendships are better because we work together in some way or they listened to a podcast that I did that helped them rethink friendship, and their lives are better for it. That would be my hope for my legacy.
That is great hope, and it has already happened for many women based on you. I am sure it is going to happen for hundreds more and thousands more, so kudos to you and everything that you do. As I said upfront, you are an awesome human being. Thank you for being on the show.
I appreciate you. Thank you for having me.
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Thanks for reading with Danielle Bayard Jackson. What an awesome person, and to think that she was a mean girl, I do not believe that for one bit. There are some things that she said that were so great. Let’s go through them together. Milestones are not times to retrench from friendships but they are times to lean in even more. When people assume things about people, that can lead to division. We know what the first three letters of assume are.
Wellness is so important for moms, for women, and for all people. It is not a luxury. It is critical. If you think of friendship as basic and critical, then that is the way to think of it. Not as something extra. If you enjoyed this show, leave a message. Check out my book, subscribe to the show, and remember, let’s keep connected because life is better together.
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About Danielle Bayard Jackson
Danielle Bayard Jackson is a publicist by day and a friendship coach by night. Whenever she’s not helping women build social and professional connections, she is either:
- chasing her three-year-old son
- enjoying brunch with girlfriends
- working on her manuscript (book in bookstores near you in 2024!)
- producing her podcast, Friend Forward
- overanalyzing the latest episode of Insecure
As a former high school teacher, Jackson really values education, which means she’s either spending her downtime reviewing new studies OR finding ways to teach her clients how to achieve a true transformation. Since leaving the classroom more than eight years ago, she created a path of my own, and she is so grateful for the support she has received along the way. She believes in being a woman who does “all the things,” defining joy and success on her own terms. It’s such a blessing to wake up day after day and be completely in love with what you do.
Last modified on March 30, 2022
