From: John Charles Weston <[address removed]>
Subject: RE: [vocalists-151] Poets?
To: [address removed]
Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 1:52 PM

I'd like to jump in here because this is a fun discussion.

First and foremost - there is nothing wrong with making money performing, selling, writing, etc. music.  I had a long discussion yesterday about the integrity of many popular "country" radio hits.  Most of those hits are written (or co-written) by professional songwriters, many of them full-time songwriters, producers, and/or artists/performers themselves.  When a songwriter is shopping several hundred songs at any given point, can you really expect each and every one of them to be artistic gems?  And, as a songwriter, are you going to turn down a royalty check that not only pays the bills, but also allows you to continue your career in music simply because it isn't the absolute best song you have written to date?  Of course not.  If you want to label "stupid" music, fine.  But, you have to realize that - more often than not - "stupid" music only sells BECAUSE it is obvious, banal and appeals to the lowest common denominator.  Someone somewhere will ALWAYS be trying to capitalize on the latest trend, or replicate what is already making money.  The good news is that most of the time "stupid" music isn't what we look back on a generation or two later and say, "That was truly great and has stood the test of time".  Instead, this music fades from popularity along with most of the other momentary trends any generation invents or recycles.

When Carole King released "Tapestry" in 1971, it was a collection of 12 songs that had been written over an already extremely successful and lucrative career (one that had already spanned over twenty years).  In fact, many of the songs on "Tapestry" were already enormous hits for artists like Aretha Franklin and The Shirelles, and had, in some cases, been written over a decade before the album "Tapestry" was even conceived.  So, when King decided to record these songs on her own, she had a catalog built up from almost two decades of work, and had already recorded much of this catalog with other artists.  How can you compare two decades of work to five or six hours (the amount of time that is often spent in a Nashville-style writing or co-writing session)?  When you look at it from this angle, an annoyingly cliche pop tune and a masterpiece like "You've Got a Friend" are not only incomparable artistically, but it would be unfair to hold them to the same standard.

I won't go into The Beatles too much because, frankly, I'm sick of talking about them.  But, an often unheard and rarely vocalized perspective on them is that they were under performing as songwriters for most of the early-to-mid 1960s.  I listened to an interview with George Martin (producer owner of 10% of all Lennon/McCartney copyrights) less than a month ago where he reflected on the frustration he felt while working on "Rubber Soul" and "Revolver".  As he said, he couldn't get enough time with them to work on writing as a result of their incredibly intense tour schedule.  That's right.  According to George Martin, John Lennon and Paul McCartney were not writing to the best of their abilities on "Rubber Soul" and "Revolver" BECAUSE they were too busy on the road -- getting paid.  Also, the song "Money (That's What I Want)" was originally a Motown song and it was co-written by Barry Gordy; The Beatles covered it.    

As for Gangsta Rap, I think a larger social issue is at hand here.  We really can't censor what people say or think (too much).  But, in my opinion, we shouldn't be able to.  That's someones life, that's someones reality, and in many situations it is a way of talking about realities that are hard to talk about; many of them being horrible realities that could otherwise be conveniently ignored by society at large.  Just like in ANY other genre, however, there are going to be people who try and capitalize on its popularity.  C'est la vie.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otn1YORTxDo - Hustle & Flow film won an Academy Award in 2005 for Three 6 Mafia's Gangsta Rap song "It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp", and Terrance Howard was nominated for best actor.   Obviously there are many acclaimed, successful, educated, etc. artists out there who find serious artistic value in this sort of content.    

Food for thought.  A very fun discussion!

John Weston

Freelance Musician, Songwriter, Guitar Instructor

(949)[masked]

[address removed]

-------- Original Message --------Subject: Re: [vocalists-151] Poets?From: David Hartman <[address removed]>Date: Fri, November 04,[masked]:21 pmTo: [address removed]

John,

I don't think we disagree that much although I'm not sure that the Beatles wrote songs to make money (well, maybe except for the song "Money" :)  as much as competing with each other to write better songs.  At least that's what the bio's seem to say.  And I agree that there's a big musical world out there, with Miles, and Billie and John and Paul, etc.  It's all music and it's (mostly) up for grabs as to what is good and what isn't.  Some of it's stupid (e.g., Ke$ha) but stupid sometimes has a good beat.

But I do think there's a line to be drawn.  I'm not going to say I don't understand gangsta rap, for example. I do understand --- that many of the songs glorify killing people, treating women like scum, and making drug money.  And I think that's what's garbage; it's twisted, violent and denigrates people.  

DrD

On Nov 4, 2011, at 4:56 PM, John B wrote: 

Dave

 

it's almost a free world so its cool to disagree but if you read what your saying it applies to lots of music..not that I disagree with you but frankly lots of this music doesn't speak to me and ....tin pan alley had great songs penned to make lots of money...The Beatles wrote songs that they wanted to make lots of money on too..of course interior motive is involved...I'm not defending lots of that stuff cause I don't understand it and to me much of its crap but you know what .....in between the lines someone listening to what you call garbage might be led to Miles Davis or Billie Holida down the road....I like your passion...Dave..at the same time we all can be a bit elitist? I'm not taking myself out of that mix....   

From: David Hartman <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, November 4,[masked]:49 PM
Subject: Re: [vocalists-151] Poets?

John,

I disagree; I think some "music" is, at best, stupid, crass and penned to make a lot of money from people who have dropped out of school and have a 5th grade vocabulary. 

Do you think that gangsta rap is fine because it's a cultural "treasure trove" even though it celebrates a violent and misogynistic lifestyle?  I think we are too timid to say that some things are just garbage; that they make us worse human beings for endorsing or listening to them.

DrDave

On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:09 PM, John B wrote:

well Dave while I'm not a fan of autotuned music I also don't call any music garbage as one person's treasure is another's dirty laudry etc. ....fact is some music speaks to us and other music does not...some people used to say the same about both Elvis's ...keep peace in your heart and a pic in your pocket JB VOP

Interesting.  So what does that say about the moronic, autotuned garbage out there now?  Is Ke$ha the people's poet?

DrDave

On Nov 4, 2011, at 8:53 AM, John Ludwig wrote:

<They're playing our song.pdf>

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by David Hartman ([address removed]) from The Chicago Songwriters Collective Meetup Group.
To learn more about David Hartman, visit his/her member profile
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by John B ([address removed]) from The Chicago Songwriters Collective Meetup Group.
To learn more about John B, visit his/her member profile
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by David Hartman ([address removed]) from The Chicago Songwriters Collective Meetup Group.
To learn more about David Hartman, visit his/her member profile
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by John Charles Weston ([address removed]) from The Chicago Songwriters Collective Meetup Group.
To learn more about John Charles Weston, visit his/her member profile
To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here

Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]