As I read things this is correct.  I don't see that the terms and conditions that Israel would like to see would be acceptable to Palestinians either.  However, there is vastly more room for negotiation and accommodation possible on that side of a negotiating table.  The only acceptable solution for Hamas is a one state solution and frankly they might want to require that the Jews convert to Islam on pain of death.

There are certainly a good number of intelligent, thoughtful, reasonable and thoroughly innocent Palestinians living in Gaza.  I just don't see how there can be peace as long as Hamas rules there.  I do see some small political possibility for the secularists in Israel to take charge and actually change it into a more formally secular state.  The secularists in Israel have to realize that the militant Orthodox are a significant risk to any secularist sanity just as much as much as militant Islamic Jihad. 

Don

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From: Mathew Goldstein <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, August 5,[masked]:04 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Current Gaza conflict

As far as I can determine, Hamas considers all of Palestine from the river to the sea occupied.  I do not understand why some people seem to be so confident that the conflict would end if Gaza had full sovereignty as an Islamic state.  Hamas spokespeople who speak to a non-Arab audience usually say nothing about this one way or the other, even when asked, or they hide behind ambiguous language by saying the conflict will end with the end of occupation.  From the Hamas perspective, the entire usurper state of Israel is an occupation.  In 2014, Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, deputy chairman of Hamas's political bureau, said: "Hamas will not recognize Israel ... this is a red line that cannot be crossed"

On Aug 5, 2014, at 1:51 PM, raaj   <[address removed]> wrote:

unless Palestine becomes a sovereign state and unoccupied territory,this conflict will never end.
Israel has a right to be a state in middle east and am glad it can defend itself against any one  but doesnot have a right to discriminate  or suprress the others,( as i read about the situation)

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Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Current Gaza conflict
From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Date: Tue, 5 Aug[masked]:41:09 -0400

Hamas expresses a willingness to stop the rocket fire into Israel from Gaza on a temporary basis only, provided that the restrictions on airports and ship terminals and travel into and out of Gaza are lifted.  Hamas has (so far) been unwilling to agree to refrain meanwhile from digging tunnels that cross into Israel, importing heavy weaponry, and using against Israel whatever military capabilities they can acquire via an airport, a ship terminal, and unrestricted travel abroad. So for Israel there is no benefit to a short term agreement to end the rocket fire into Israel on the terms that Hamas sets because Hamas would probably use the concessions that they extract from Israel in exchange for a temporary truce to build up their military capabilities for their next battle against Israel.  When Israel decides they are going to deploy their military to try to stop the daily rocket fire and disable the tunnels that cross the border into Israel from Gaza then there is no feasible way for them to achieve those goals without hundreds of Gaza civilians being killed and many more injured  (some of whom are killed or injured by fire originating from the Hamas fighters).

On Aug 5, 2014, at 12:05 PM, Don Wharton <[address removed]> wrote:

The total number of civilians killed is not the only measure of evil.  The Israeli side is far more educated and tolerant of both science and diversity of opinion.  If the residents of Gaza cannot criticize Hamas with risking likely death then the mind lock of that governance is supremely vile.  The hard religious fundamentalism is a prototypical evil that is central to the worst that that we as secular people wish to protest.

The fact that Hamas has killed fewer civilians is due to the lower level of technical competence.  Certainly Hamas does not have a clear notion of how to uplift the general prospects for humanity.  There is at least some support in Israel for a two state solution which would allow Palestinians and Israelis to prosper.

Don

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From: Mike Chelen <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, August 5,[masked]:10 AM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Current Gaza conflict

Sorry Tom, but I don't see how the side that has killed over 1,000 civilians (Israel) can be a lesser evil than the side that has killed under 10 civilians (Hamas).

That's not to say that either side is right, but the fact is that in this recent conflict far more civilians have died at the hands of Israel than Hamas.

- Mike

On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Tom Fields <[address removed]> wrote:

Here's a cartoon that sums it up. I dislike BOTH sides, but the Israelis are the lesser of the two evils.  And to be sure, religion has poisoned the Middle East as nothing else could. 

When (as the article points out) the Palestinians inherited all those greenhouses, they could have used them to grow cannibis.  It could be legal, taxed, and regulated.  And since it's banned all over the Mideast, people would come from all over to get stoned.  They could have built casinos, brothels, nightclubs, and everything else that is illegal in all the nearby countries.  It would be like Las Vegas and Amsterdam combined--right on the Med, a few miles from the Suez Canal. It would be the only place on earth where you could legally gamble while stoned. They could use consumption-based taxes and user fees to raise revenue, and vastly improved schools, hospitals, infrastructure, and so on.  

But NOOOOO!  The Palestinians are too religious for all that.  So they voted for Hamas, whose only aim is the destruction of Israel.  And Hamas provoked this war, so that Israel would look bad. And (as the article points out) they use their own people as shields, while they go down inside their bomb shelters.  How can the Palestinians see Hamas as heroes?  It's futile to help those who refuse to help themselves.

Things are only going to get worse. Too bad, because the Middle East could have been a nice place.

Tom

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From: "Robert W Ahrens" <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, August 4,[masked]:08:55 AM
Subject: [atheists-27] Current Gaza conflict

Read this article, it has some interesting points about this conflict and the history behind it.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Sent from my iPad

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