Matthew, you seem truly "married" (if you'll forgive the pun) to this arbitrary 6 month "free pass".  That is simply not the way the world works, and she is not entitled to 6 more months of denying people their Constitutional rights.  

Sent via mobile

On Sep 6, 2015, at 9:07 PM, Mathew Goldstein <[address removed]> wrote:

Expecting current employees to seek new employment in advance of a close 5-4 decision that could have gone the other way is not entirely realistic.  If I were in her shoes I think I would conclude that going to jail is better than abandoning employment prior to having an opportunity to try to seek alternative employment.  However, if there was a 6 month delay before the penalty was enforced then I would conclude that finding alternative employment is better than going to jail. In the latter case there would be no national news story, etc.

On Sep 6, 2015, at 6:59 PM, Mary Bellamy <[address removed]> wrote:

Mathew, I don't even agree with you in theory on this. I've been a government employee. You don't get to choose which laws you implement. I would think that many of us have had the parameters of a job change because of a new directive from on high or a new boss. If the change makes the job intolerable, you leave. In this particular instance, the change that happened was foreseeable a mile away. If she didn't want to sign such licenses, she should have started looking for a new job long ago.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Mathew Goldstein <[address removed]> wrote:

If there had been a 6 month delay between the SCOTUS decision and the enforcement of the decision, then if Kim Davis was subsequently jailed in March we would say she could have found other employment, paid her bills, and stayed out of jail.  Without that all we can do is say is that she is at fault for wanting to retain her employment while refusing to implement a newly revised law that she rejects.  Telling government employees they must implement a newly changed law that they reject or go to jail or be unemployed is a harsh demand.  An enforcement delay in contexts like this, by giving impacted government employees a reasonable opportunity to find other employment and avoid jail, would be better.

On Sep 6, 2015, at 4:49 PM, Mary Bellamy <[address removed]> wrote:

I am not happy about the people mocking Kim Davis because of the way she looks or for her family situation. I know that if she had been a man she might have been subject to similar mockery, but the problem is that women are almost always judged for their looks and their personal choices. I want her to be judged for her actions alone as men oftentimes are. 

On Sunday, September 6, 2015, Don Wharton <[address removed]> wrote:

As everyone knows I see the GLBT rights revolution as being the effective spear point of the secular revolution. We have to love the insanity in Kentucky. Obviously we can have some compassion for those who could not get their marriage licenses. However, the national news feed that came from it is of vast benefit to us all. It makes it clear that Christianity can enable stupid and reprehensible bigotry. We have several GOP Presidential candidates who fully support this insanity.

Kim Davis has become the face of Christian bigotry in the same way that Bull Connor and George Wallace become the face of anti-black bigotry in a prior time. I have seen a number of secular blog posts that decry comments about her looks. There was one photo of her with a bad hair day. It had comments on it saying, “She should support GLBT rights. Then she would be able to find someone to do her hair.”

Obviously this has nothing to do with the legal or moral issues at hand. I have no personal desire to hold her up to ridicule. However, I have not the slightest problem with her becoming a symbol of ridicule in this way. People are emotional. Very few either understand or support the more cerebral discussions that we share here. I am quite happy with the content of fundamentalist Christianity bringing to mind an image of this ridicule. It would vastly advance the enterprise of getting mean spirited bigotry and stupidity out of our culture.

Mike Huckabee is now claiming that Christianity has become criminalized.  If his understanding is that Christianity demands that the rights of others be abrogated then fine, it fully deserves to be criminalized.  This is the relevant point for the culture war to be waged.

To some extent I want to apologize to Mathew for not responding to his last thoughtful reply on the Waking Up thread. We need to put our focus on the things that matter. GLBT rights matter. War and peace matter. I asked Lee, my significant other, if she had heard of the hard problem and did she have an opinion on it? She replied that she thought she had heard of it and wasn't it something about mathematics? My guess is that a relative low percentage of our population know about the hard problem or care. Lee has almost certainly read more books than 99% of the people on our elist. There are a great many fields in which she is vastly more informed than I am. What is the harm that can be avoided or benefit that can be achieved by discussing the so called “hard problem.” I doubt that my profound contempt for a problem that does not even exist will convince anyone. All any supporters of the “hard problem” have is their confusion. That is all they can possibly have. The major harm to conscious entities will come when computer systems become much more conscious than we are. Frankly I don't much care about the future bigotry that we may have toward such computer systems.

I do care about GLBT right. I do care about war and peace. I do care about what will move the wider society in a secular direction so that society as whole is more rational.

Don

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Meetup on behalf of Don Wharton from DC Atheists Meetup.
To report this message or block the sender, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Meetup on behalf of Mary Bellamy from DC Atheists Meetup.
To report this message or block the sender, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Meetup on behalf of Mathew Goldstein from DC Atheists Meetup.
To report this message or block the sender, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Meetup on behalf of Mary Bellamy from DC Atheists Meetup.
To report this message or block the sender, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Meetup on behalf of Mathew Goldstein from DC Atheists Meetup.
To report this message or block the sender, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Meetup on behalf of Glenn from DC Atheists Meetup.
To report this message or block the sender, please click here
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]