Detroit Area MahJong Message Board › Standardized Rules for Riichi

Standardized Rules for Riichi

A former member
Post #: 23
I like the idea of disallowing open simples. I agree that it leads to a lot of cheap/quick hands. I think Kuikae can be allowed, I'm not sure what disallowing it is really going to add to the game. With Open Riichi, I really wouldn't mind it being allowed. Open riichi is going to be very rare. Just to make sure you understand, you can not declare an open riichi after you have already opened, the same as regular riichi. An open riichi only happens when you have stayed closed. It is only after the fact that it's opened. Nobody is going to purposely deal into it since it's open, so it would really only be a tactic used after 2-3 people have already declared riichi. I don't think the rule really ruins anything per se, but I'm also not attached to the rule, so we can do away with it if that is what most people want to do.

I think enforcing any penalties will be dependent on who is playing at the time. We haven't really had any tournaments (though it is something I think would be cool to do at some point), so I think it just depends on how new the person is that broke the rule.

I am going to go through both sets of rules later on tonight to find more differences. If what we come up with strays too far from either style I may draft something up myself.

the only time I run open riichi is when I have 3 concealed pungs and 2 pairs, I generally then declare open riichi to either block hands or guarantee I get the 4 concealed pungs rather than 3 and an open one with riichi

the other very rare exception is when you're furiten, you can still declare open riichi to get the extra yaku, and not risk much at all (since you can't win on opponents' discards anyway.

I also often try to extend a single yakuman hand into a double yakuman if possible. Disallowing such would take alot of the fun of riichi out of it for me. It's a rare enough event that it shouldn't be held back (the blessing hands and open riichi deal in yakuman already disallow collecting multiple yakuman if you claim those as one of your yakuman, and big four winds is naturally a double yakuman.)
Jocilyn W.
user 12236492
Ann Arbor, MI
Post #: 6
A friend pointed me in the direction of this website which looks to have the best description of the jansou (parlor) rules I've seen. I guess this author wrote a book on Riichi mahjong (http://tinyurl.com/26...­) but I doubt we need it.

http://www.reachmahjo...­
Brian M.
p014k
Ann Arbor, MI
Post #: 1
Hello, I have several suggestions for a standardized rule list.

Allowed (Ari)
Akadora (Red Dora)
Atozuke (Backdoor Win) (I'm not quite sure what this means, anyone have an idea?)
Ippatsu (One-shot)
Kandora/Kanuradora (Dora from kong + hidden)
Kuikae (Chow switch)
Nagashimangan (Honorable discard)
Open Riichi (2 yaku for opening your hand on riichi)
Renhou (Blessing of man = Yakuman)
Ryanhanshibari (Minimum of 2 yaku to go out after 5 dealer wins)
Tempai Renchan (If dealer is tenpai he/she remains dealer)
Tochuryukyoku (Abortive draws)
Uradora (Hidden dora)

Not Allowed (Nashi)
Barenchan (Dealer gets Yakuman after 8 wins)
Double Yakuman (Allowed to get more than 1 Yakuman)
Kuitan (Open Simples/Tanyao)
Yakitori (Player who doesn't win is penalized)
I like Adam's list except for a couple of alterations and additions;

First, Barenchen: allowed. This isn't exactly 'Dealer gets Yakuman after 8 wins'. The correct description is that if anyone gets 8 wins in a row, regardless of whether they're dealer or not gets a yakuman on the 9th through Nth hand. So for example. If I'm north wind, and I win 3 times in a row it becomes my deal. Then I win 5 more times in a row. Then any subsequent hand I made (even if its 0 yaku) is a yakuman, as long as its a complete hand. I like this rule. I've never seen it come up, but if someone wins 8 times in a row, it should be game over. If they win little hands, tsumos, and win off of a variety of people, they should be rewarded in some way. Ie. Barenchen. Also, it would be epic.

2nd, Double Yakuman: very allowed. This is a rule I never thought would be disallowed anywhere ever. The point of getting double to sextuple (6 is the highest possible: Suu ankou with unique wait, Tsuu Iisou, Dai suushii, and either Tenho, Renho, or Chinho) is to have a super epic hand that should be awarded appropriately. If you disallow double yakuman then there will be no bonus for unique wait which is part of the game. Also daii shuushii will be non-existant. These yakuman and yakuman combos exist to make the game more epic. Just like you combine different yaku to make a mangan or stronger hand, you combine yakuman to make better yakuman.

3rd, Yakitori: allowed. I personally like this rule. For those who don't know, this rule states that you have to win at least one hand by games end. If not, you pay a dealer chombo penalty (more details about chombo below) at the end of the game (4000 to each). It's just fun to keep track of who hasn't won yet. It is kind of a 'kick you while your down' rule, but nevertheless I play with it and its fun. Also, I've seen it scored differently on different sites and games. I do dealer chombo penalty at the end of a natural game (if no one gets bankrupt).

Chombo: I like playing with chombo penalty (a non-dealer chombo-er pays 4000 to dealer and 2000 for non-dealer; a dealer chombo-er pays 4000 to everybody, but doesn't lose their deal and the ante (bonus) is not increased.). A chombo occurs when a player falsely declares a win (e.g. doesn't have the tiles they thought, has no yaku, is in furiten, or in ryukyoku is not in tenpai after declaring riichi). This is to prevent cheating, but also to punish for grave mistakes. I think it's unfair to other plays that there should be a re-deal if someone misread their hand. I am, however, in favor of being lenient towards newer players: allowing them a chombo or two because they're learning. For experienced players, though, I think a punishment should be had.

Negative points: I don't know if this was covered, but it occurred at the latest Ann Arbor meetup. I usually play that if someone has 1000 points, for example, and someone wins a mangan off of them (8000), then the player who won gets 8000 points and the player who lost goes down to -7000 and the game is over due to bankrupt.

Ante (or bonus): Allowed. It's part of the game. If a dealer wins, an ante is added (100 point stick) to the ante pile (usually left of the dealer). This is also where riichi sticks go if it goes into ryukyoku. If at least one person is in tenpai, an ante stick gets added to the ante pile. Once the deal passes, the dealer gets their ante sticks back (as they are just markers). If a dealer is not in tenpai, the next dealer adds an ante stick to the pile. Antes work in the follow manner: upon a win, the winner gets 3x ante. E.g. If there are 2 ante sticks in the ante pile, and a person rons of another, the winner gets the value of their hand + 3x ante (600) points. If he tsumo's everyone pays 1x ante more (1x from each person, so winner would get 1x+1x+1x=3x ante). Ryanhanshibari and Barenchen rules apply.

Chankan: I like to play that you can chankan off an kakan (promoted kan) like normal, but also off an ankan (decleared concealed kan). It's pretty much the same thing. If you have a wait and someone is holding four of those tiles, you should be able to win off of them if they declare it. Just like if someone kakans you can chankan, you should be able to do it for ankan as well.

Kans after kans/pons or chis: This is a rule I like very very much. The the standard rule set, you cannot kan (weather ankan or kakan) on the same turn you declared a pon/chi/kan. For example. If you have a concealed kan in you're hand, you can wait until you're in tenpai, declare your kan, and hope for a rinchan (a la Saki :P). However, you are crippled by the standard rule set if you're going for a hand that allows for the hand to be open. Example: you are going for toi toi. You have 1 declared pon off of other players, thus opening your hand. In your hand you have a 1 concealed pon, 3 pairs, and a random tile. You draw the 4th tile in your concealed pon set making an undeclared concealed kan. You then discard the random tile. The next person happens to drop one of the tiles in one of your three pairs. You call pon, now what? You have 2 declared pons, 2 pairs left and a concealed kan. By standard rules, you will be forced to discard the 4th tile in the kan, instead of being allowed to declare ankan and try to get rinchan. To me the standard rule set for this rule is very bad, and thus I play with this modified rule set. I didn't make up this rule, it is an option in the settings in a Japanese Mahjong computer game called Saikyo no 3D Mahjong (http://www.meetup.com...­.

Revealing extra dora: I came up with this rule just to reward ankans/kakans. Normally when you declare any sort of kan, you have to discard before the next dora tile is revealed. For ankans/kakans, though, I play that the dora tile is revealed before you discard as a reward for declaring a concealed kan or promoting a kan. Just food for thought.

Open Riichi: I haven't seen it mentioned here, but the rules for Open Riichi are a little different than you've been describing. If you declare open riichi, you are awarded an extra yaku if you tsumo, however, if someone discards your winning tile, its a yakuman. This is done to capitalize on someone else being in riichi. If one person is in riichi and you declare open riichi, they have to discard what they drop, so if they drop your tile, you get a yakuman. I dislike this rule, it is overpowered and ruins the balance of the game. I've even tried playing it where you have to wait until 2 people declare riichi to play it. It's fun for a little bit, but otherwise it's just silly.
Brian M.
p014k
Ann Arbor, MI
Post #: 2
OK this is my understanding of atozuke (I was/am confused by this rule too):

It's about whether or not a yaku has to be secured before you can call ron. Lets say you are in tenpai, you have a pair of 7's and a pair of Easts, and your only yaku is going to be a pon of Easts. As your hand sits right now you have no yaku. If Atozure is disallowed then you will not be able to call Ron if someone discards an east.
Yes, this is atozure.

Lets say you are going for "all sets contain terminals and honors" as your only yaku and you are in tenpai. I'm pretty sure if you have a 23 in your hand and are waiting for the 1 to go out it would be considered an atozure (since as it sits now that last set does not contain a terminal so you don't have that yaku yet). But are you clear to call a ron if you have a 12 and are waiting for a 3 since that last set already has it's terminal or is that still considered a atozure since the yaku isn't completed until the ron is called?
No, this isn't atozure as the rest of your hand is already made and fits the criteria. For the above pon of easts, your winning tile would give you the yaku. See below for more.

Or say you are going for an all pons hand as your only yaku. Would you have to have all the pons set and be waiting on the pair or could you have something like 2255 and still call ron (techincally you don't have 4 pons yet but you are guaranteed to get one with either of your waits)?
This is not atozure just like in the chanta situation. The rest of your hand is part of the yaku. The only one that this really applies for is hands that have just one item in them that makes the yaku (like yakupai).

To clarify, though, in the chanta situation all your chi's and pon/kan's are going to be terminal sets or honors, thus it follow the rules. If, however, you were going for something like san shoku doujun and you had, this hand;

234 (souzu),234 (manzu),34(pinzu) 567(pinzu), and 2 east. Wait on 2pin

You can declare (off another player) the two 2 234 chis, however, if at any point before you get your third 234 chi you were to declare the 567(pinzu) then you would be in atozure and couldn't win. So, you would have to have the 567(pinzu) concealed and any number of 234s open.


I suppose it doesn't really matter since we plan to allow atozure (have you ever run across a rule set where it's banned? It seems like it's pretty standard to allow this).
I really dislike atozure. The computer game I play has many options on what rules to turn off or on, but this isn't one of them :/ I also don't play it in real life either.
Merle
user 11831024
Ypsilanti, MI
Post #: 8
Weeeee, more rules discussion =P

Barenchen: I don't really care either way. Like you I've never seen it happen, but I'm fine with it if someone can pull it off.

2nd, Double Yakuman: Also don't really care. Usually a yakuman will just end up ending the game (either literally or figuratively), so I don't think it really matters since we aren't gambling.

3rd, Yakitori: It's kind of pointless unless you are gambling.

Chombo: We never play with this because we get a lot of newbies. We usually don't redeal (I realize we just kind of invented this method, it's not what we should be doing) we just declare that person's hand dead and they have to discard whatever they pick up. I think this should be a game time decision among the people playing.

Negative points: That is what we have done every time it's come up in games I've been in.

Ante (or bonus): I'm fine with it, I think the only reason we haven't been doing it is that we were unsure of the exactly how the scoring worked =P

Chankan: I don't think I've seen this rule anywhere before. Where did you get this rule from? I dislike deviating from the more "standard" rules too much.

Kans after kans/pons or chis: Same as above, but I have less of an issue with this.

Revealing extra dora: We've always revealed the dora before the discard (same thing happens at Ron2). I didn't resalize this was a thing =P

Open Riichi: I could go either way. I initially didn't like the rule, but was convinced otherwise. It hasn't really been an issue in any of the games I've played with the group (I think we had 1 open riichi ever in my games). I think the majority of us learned the game/play somewhere where this is disallowed; even though we ended up allowing it, it never really crosses our minds to use it.
Adam
akilleen
Group Organizer
Ferndale, MI
Post #: 28
I'm with Merle on most of this.

Barenchan is fine. It's a tough one to pull off, so why not? I think Merle was getting close last time we played though tongue

I initially was against Double Yakuman, but really why not? I think that it's fine.

Yakitori, yea, pretty much pointless unless we were gambling. Same goes for uma, IMO.

Chombo: If it's all experienced people then we should probably implement it, but it can be discussed at gametime.

We usually play where the game is over when someone goes negative.

I usually end up forgetting about the ante, but it would be good if we kept up on that.

I don't really like the idea of winning off someone else's concealed kan. I think if someone has managed to get a concealed kan they should be able to keep it without fear of someone winning off of it. Not allowing this gives you a little more room for defense.

Kans after kan/pon/chi I don't really care either way.

I really don't care either way when it comes to revealing the extra dora. I usually just go along with whatever the rest of the table is doing.

I like open riichi, I think it adds an interesting element to the game. It also doesn't happen very often. Thinking about it, I think last game I was at there were 3 people in riichi at one point, it could have been an interesting option.

Thanks for the suggestions, Brian. As we go it's good to re-evaluate the way we play.
Brian M.
p014k
Ann Arbor, MI
Post #: 4

Chankan: I don't think I've seen this rule anywhere before. Where did you get this rule from? I dislike deviating from the more "standard" rules too much.

Kans after kans/pons or chis: Same as above, but I have less of an issue with this.
So it's in the Saikyo no 3D Mahjong game I mentioned above. As it is a game directly from Japan, I assume the rules are used somewhere. It is not standard, yes, but it makes logical sense. I'm for not allowing chankan from an ankan, but I'd really like the Kans after kans/pons/chis rule.
Jocilyn W.
user 12236492
Ann Arbor, MI
Post #: 7
Brian, at Thursday's game Matthew was trying to tell us about some supposedly standardized three person mahjong. It sounded extra (ie. unnecessarily) complicated and I refused to try and learn it late at night with so many distractions on four hours sleep. Is this something you understand and could teach at another meeting? Is there a website I should visit to try and learn the rules? Thanks!

~Jo
Brian M.
p014k
Ann Arbor, MI
Post #: 6
Brian, at Thursday's game Matthew was trying to tell us about some supposedly standardized three person mahjong. It sounded extra (ie. unnecessarily) complicated and I refused to try and learn it late at night with so many distractions on four hours sleep. Is this something you understand and could teach at another meeting? Is there a website I should visit to try and learn the rules? Thanks!

~Jo
Was it using the north wind as a special tile? I personally don't know how to play this version, but I know someone who does, and could explain it me in under 5 mins. Next time I see them (probably on friday), I'll ask them the details of the game and what it is called exactly.

For my basic understanding from when Matthew and my friend were playing it the other week, you use the north wind to declare something called "kita". In order to do this, you have a north wind in your hand (just 1) and you declare kita. You then draw a tile from the deadwall. I'm unsure exactly what the procedure of drawing from the deadwall is and how tiles are replaced. So in theory there are 4 kita's available throughout the game. It basically just gives you an extra draw. Also, you remove the 2-8 of manzu as per usual 3 player rules.

Also, I believe this is the version of three player they play on www.tenho.net. I can't read Japanese, so I couldn't tell you exactly.
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