I believe stealing is wrong---but cooperative living is usually
beneficial to all---
When someone's house catches on fire----we all pitch in---we're
forced to pitch in----to pay for the firemen to be available & have
the equipment to respond---if the fire was caused by faulty
electric---then is it stealing to make me pay for someone who didn't
maintain their electric wires? What if it was caused by smoking?
What if it was caused by a child playing with matches?
I have never had a fire at my house--does that make me superior--I
made better decisions in my life so I have not had a fire.
Maybe I should not have to contribute to the fire department?
I don't have any children--should my property taxes pay for schools?
Teacher salaries? It's not my fault some of you decided to have
children---I didn't have any---is it stealing for my money to go
towards teachers? & school maintenance?
What about republican politicians--I never voted for them--sometimes
they make bad decisions----is it stealing for my tax money to pay for
their salaries---hey--I even pay for their health insurance --when I
work 60 hours a week & still can only afford health insurance ($330
mth) that has decided to not cover my kidneys or bladder because I
once had a kidney stone.
There are lots of ways to look at lots of things!!!
On Apr 28, 2008, at 9:32 AM, Robin wrote:
> Ok, I'm hearing all of these different emotional
> arguments, but no one is addressing the true point
> that John and I both made:
> It's wrong to steal, regardless of the motives.
> If you want to say that it's right to give to the
> poor, and that it's wrong to be selfish, fine, just
> say so. That's what charities are for, not government
> tax-funded institutions.
> Government-funded, "universal" health care is NOT the
> same as private insurance. I know that in private
> insurance, everyone is paying for everyone else too,
> but it's OPTIONAL! That way the healthy people don't
> HAVE to pay for the unhealthy people unless they want
> to do it. Forcing them to do it whether they want to
> or not is the same as stealing. "Give me your money
> or I'll take it from you."
> So, is it wrong to steal? And, if not, why is it
> wrong to let people die from sicknesses? I'm arguing
> that there is right and wrong.
> --- Ellen Morgan <[address removed]> wrote:
>> Face it---if you can work you will WORK---no one
>> really really wants
>> to get something for nothing---some people described
>> as "lazy" were
>> brought up in an unhealthy home & are mentally not
>> able or easily
>> able to make good decisions--they doubt their worth
>> & can not
>> function as efficiently as someone else--who maybe
>> had a healthy
>> upbringing & was a loved child---maybe we could
>> invest our time in
>> helping less fortunate people to raise healthy
>> kids----volunteer your
>> time to inspire a child---& maybe that is a way to
>> make a difference
>> in the number of "lazy" people getting benefit from
>> handouts. Even
>> if this logic is WRONG--the goal is GREAT & worth
>> living!! The
>> assumption that people who claim to and who need
>> help are lazy & made
>> bad decisions so they should suffer the
>> ramifications of their
>> choices is such a stingy, selfish & blind point of
>> We've all heard stories of people taking advantage
>> of "the system"----
>> we need to police the system & inspire people to
>> make better
>> choices---& invest in research about what makes one
>> person more
>> productive than another----at some level it's just a
>> choice--at some
>> level the choice is not so obvious & clear & easy.
>> Of course the insurance circles would promote this
>> are the ones that will loose if we have a universal
>> health care
>> system----they might be the only ones who will get
>> Ellen Morgan
>> On Apr 28, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Harry Pearson wrote:
>>> Not even our government, running into endless debt
>> for the Iraq
>>> War, can provide "something for nothing". A single
>> payer Universal
>>> Health care will be paid for with TAXES!! Sounds
>> horrible but add
>>> up how much you are paying for insurance - I have
>> Medicare which is
>>> deducted from my SSA & a Secondary insurance which
>> is a rollover
>>> from my empoyer when I retired which is $120 per
>> month & I get
>>> absolutely nothing for it except a discount on
>> prescription drugs.
>>> I have a relative who is between jobs & has to pay
>> $464 per month
>>> for something called COBRA. Check out the
>> Canadian, English &
>>> French systems (summarized in "Sicko") & the
>> health care is better
>>> (Why in Hell do we buy drugs from Canada??)
>> cheaper & run much better.
>>> Yeah, the ones who work pay the most. But look -
>> the roads get
>>> built & someone who pays no taxes (for whatever
>> reason) gets to
>>> drive their car on them for free.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin"
>>> <[address removed]>
>>> To: <[address removed]>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 28,[masked]:18 AM
>>> Subject: RE: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care
>> That Can Never Be
>>> Taken Away'
>>>> That is certainly always a big problem when you
>>>> provide something for nothing. Universal health
>>>> would "supposedly" be payed for by everyone, but
>>>> would end up being payed for only by those who
>>>> And a lot of those who currently work to maintain
>>>> their health care would stop working if they knew
>>>> they were just going to get it for free,
>> regardless of
>>>> whether they worked or not. This is the
>> beginning of
>>>> what is called "the death spiral" in insurance
>>>> 1. Some people stop working because they'll get
>>>> coverage whether they work for it or not.
>>>> 2. Remaining people have to work more to pay for
>>>> themselves and those not working.
>>>> 3. Some of these people decide that it's not
>>>> all the extra work, so they stop working too.
>>>> 4. Remainder of working people have to work even
>>>> 5. More people drop out.
>>>> 6. Eventually, whole system falls apart, and
>>>> has any coverage at all.
>>>> Let everyone experience the fruit of their own
>>>> and let these people give some of their own
>>>> hard-earned wealth to charities for those who
>>>> work, if they want to do so. Stealing from the
>>>> (or moderately well-off) to give to the poor (or
>>>> is still stealing. Even if the rich have money
>>>> burn, that doesn't give you the right to steal it
>>>> And just to clarify, I'm nowhere even NEAR being
>>>> personally; I just agree with John that there is
>>>> right and wrong. But if you disagree with me
>>>> that, then why do you care about the people who
>>>> dying from lack of health coverage; just let 'em
>>>> and shout "Survival of the fittest!" Take your
>>>> - Robin
>>>> --- TainaAtheist <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>> I wonder if ourrepresentatives don?t provide
>>>> health care coverage in part because ofthe
>>>> for the ?lottery? affect. The ?lottery? affect
>>>> when someone quits their job without noticeas a
>>>> of a significant win or benefit improvement.
>> [address removed][mailto:atheists-36-
>>>> [address removed]]
>>>> On Behalf Of Orlando Jack
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 25,[masked]:18 AM
>>>> To: [address removed]
>>>> Subject: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That
>>>> Never Be Taken Away'
>>>> I realize this doesn't fit in our Freethought
>>>> but Icouldn't help myself after I saw this short
>>>> clip. Here's a grassrootsmovement that may
>>>> many of our members 'to take action' who are tied
>>>> totheir jobs mostly because of their 'health'
> === message truncated ===
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