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Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'

From: Bill
Sent on: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:27 PM
I'll throw in my two cents worth, even though I am a brand new member. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security were all adopted by  Congress in recognition of the government's duty to take care of people who can't fully take care if themselves. Ultra conservatives have the view that people should stand on there own feet and government should stay out of it. That is belief that originated in the frontier days and we owe a lot to the strong independent people who settled this country. But it is no longer the same country as then. Society is much more complicated. It takes a different kind of person to make in today's world. Many are left behind because of the necessity of high intelligence and really good education. And money. Now as to health care, Medicaid takes care of the permanently disabled and the extremely poor. But who takes care of the working poor? Single mothers work two or three jobs just to get by and still can't afford health insurance. The costs are so high. Children, of couurse., are the most vulnerable. People die because they can't afford necessary health care. A friend of mine rrecently needed a medical test to detrmine if a lump in her breast needed to  be removed, but she ciouldn't afford it. He doctor tolld her to come see him in 9 months. No test was done.
 
Both England and Canada have universal health care. A doctor in Canada told me the system provided "mediocre: health care" for everyone. Those that can afford better care can obtaqin it. "Mediocre" is better than none. Nor has Canada gone socialistic.
 
 
On 4/28/08, Harry Pearson <[address removed]> wrote:
I could not have said it better myself. I don't believe anyone would resign their job if single payer Universal Heath Insurance was adopted. There will always be people who are unable to take care of themselves, due to disability, age, illness, & the whole system has to be provided by the entire population.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tamara" <[address removed]>
To: <[address removed]>
Sent: Monday, April 28,[masked]:24 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'


The flaw in this argument is that you are defining paying taxes as stealing.

I suppose you may feel that all taxes *are* stealing, but I think most
reasonable people would view that perspective as ridiculous. They're not
fun, but they do serve a purpose. Roads, police, fire departments, national
defense, school etc etc - are all paid for by your taxes.

Do you think that unemployed and impoverished people who pay little to no
taxes should have no access to those services? "911, What's your emergency?
There's someone invading your home and your child is being held at gun
point? How much did you pay in taxes last year? Oh, I'm sorry. That's not
enough. We can't send any police out to help you. Good bye."

Also, the argument that health insurance is "OPTIONAL" is technically true.
In the same way that it is technically true  that we always have an option
no matter the situation. Say someone is holding a gun to your head and
telling you to give them all your money. Technically, you have the option to
say No, but the consequence is that you would be killed.

Technically, we have the option of getting no health insurance. The
consequence is that we run the risk that we will develop a devastating
health condition that we can't pay for and so we either go bankrupt trying
to pay for it out of pocket or we die. And then there are the people who
have a chronic condition for which they can't afford to pay out of pocket.
(And remember, there are genetic conditions, so not everyone can be 100% to
blame when they get ill.)

AND I'd like to point out that not everyone who works has access to health
insurance. I myself work in a position that is considered "fee-for-service"
and receives no benefits - including no health insurance option. The only
reason I have insurance at all right now is because I am in grad school and
I am lucky enough that I can get it through them.

Tamara


On 4/28/08 9:32 AM, "Robin" <[address removed]> wrote:

Ok, I'm hearing all of these different emotional
arguments, but no one is addressing the true point
that John and I both made:

It's wrong to steal, regardless of the motives.

If you want to say that it's right to give to the
poor, and that it's wrong to be selfish, fine, just
say so.  That's what charities are for, not government
tax-funded institutions.

Government-funded, "universal" health care is NOT the
same as private insurance.  I know that in private
insurance, everyone is paying for everyone else too,
but it's OPTIONAL!  That way the healthy people don't
HAVE to pay for the unhealthy people unless they want
to do it.  Forcing them to do it whether they want to
or not is the same as stealing.  "Give me your money
or I'll take it from you."

So, is it wrong to steal?  And, if not, why is it
wrong to let people die from sicknesses?  I'm arguing
that there is right and wrong.

Robin

--- Ellen Morgan <[address removed]> wrote:

Face it---if you can work you will WORK---no one
really really wants
to get something for nothing---some people described
as "lazy" were
brought up in an unhealthy home & are mentally not
able or easily
able to make good decisions--they doubt their worth
& can not
function as efficiently as someone else--who maybe
had  a healthy
upbringing & was a loved child---maybe we could
invest our time in
helping less fortunate people to raise healthy
kids----volunteer your
time to inspire a child---& maybe that is a way to
make a difference
in the number of "lazy" people getting benefit from
handouts.  Even
if this logic is WRONG--the goal is GREAT & worth
living!!  The
assumption that people who claim to and who need
help are lazy & made
bad decisions so they should suffer the
ramifications of their
choices is such a stingy, selfish & blind point of
view----

We've all heard stories of people taking advantage
of "the system"----
we need to police the system & inspire people to
make better
choices---& invest in research about what makes one
person more
productive than another----at some level it's just a
choice--at some
level the choice is not so obvious & clear & easy.

Of course the insurance circles would promote this
propaganda----they
are the ones that will loose if we have a universal
health care
system----they might be the only ones who will get
hurt---
Ellen Morgan

On Apr 28, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Harry Pearson wrote:

Not even our government, running into endless debt
for the Iraq
War, can provide "something for nothing". A single
payer Universal
Health care will be paid for with TAXES!!  Sounds
horrible but add
up how much you are paying for insurance - I have
Medicare which is
deducted from my SSA & a Secondary insurance which
is a rollover
from my empoyer when I retired which is $120 per
month & I get
absolutely nothing for it except a discount on
prescription drugs.
I have a relative who is between jobs & has to pay
$464 per month
for something called COBRA. Check out the
Canadian, English &
French systems (summarized in "Sicko") & the
health care is better
(Why in Hell do we buy drugs from Canada??)
cheaper & run much better.
Yeah, the ones who work pay the most. But look -
the roads get
built & someone who pays no taxes (for whatever
reason) gets to
drive their car on them for free.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin"
<[address removed]>
To: <[address removed]>
Sent: Monday, April 28,[masked]:18 AM
Subject: RE: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care
That Can Never Be
Taken Away'


That is certainly always a big problem when you
provide something for nothing.  Universal health
care
would "supposedly" be payed for by everyone, but
it
would end up being payed for only by those who
worked.
And a lot of those who currently work to maintain
their health care would stop working if they knew
that
they were just going to get it for free,
regardless of
whether they worked or not.  This is the
beginning of
what is called "the death spiral" in insurance
circles:

1.  Some people stop working because they'll get
coverage whether they work for it or not.

2.  Remaining people have to work more to pay for
themselves and those not working.

3.  Some of these people decide that it's not
worth
all the extra work, so they stop working too.

4.  Remainder of working people have to work even
harder.

5.  More people drop out.

6.  Eventually, whole system falls apart, and
nobody
has any coverage at all.

Let everyone experience the fruit of their own
labor,
and let these people give some of their own
hard-earned wealth to charities for those who
cannot
work, if they want to do so.  Stealing from the
rich
(or moderately well-off) to give to the poor (or
lazy)
is still stealing.  Even if the rich have money
to
burn, that doesn't give you the right to steal it
from
them.

And just to clarify, I'm nowhere even NEAR being
rich
personally; I just agree with John that there is
still
right and wrong.  But if you disagree with me
about
that, then why do you care about the people who
are
dying from lack of health coverage; just let 'em
die
and shout "Survival of the fittest!"  Take your
pick.

- Robin


--- TainaAtheist <[address removed]> wrote:


---------------------------------

I wonder if ourrepresentatives don?t provide
universal
health care coverage in part because ofthe
potential
for the ?lottery? affect. The ?lottery? affect
occurs
when someone quits their job without noticeas a
result
of a significant win or benefit improvement.



Darhlene




From:

[address removed][mailto:atheists-36-
[address removed]]
On Behalf Of Orlando Jack
Sent: Friday, April 25,[masked]:18 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That
Can
Never Be Taken Away'





I realize this doesn't fit in our Freethought
site,
but Icouldn't help myself after I saw this short
video
clip. Here's a grassrootsmovement that may
inspire
many of our members 'to take action' who are tied
totheir jobs mostly because of their 'health'
care
benefits.

ENJOY!



http://www.standtallforamerica.com/page/s/careyoukeep

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