Judi,
 
thanks a lot for your comments, but the only thing I can say that you have be a real objectivist to be ahead of the curve and plan in advance your moves. I am an objectivist and I am still successful and I am a PMP like you. You have to think for yourself and do not let ayone to influence you or allure you into the "conformist mentality".
 
Johnny

 

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
Date: Thu, 30 Apr[masked]:19:04 -0400

Johnny, may I ask--how long have you been in the workforce, and in what industry(ies)?

 

I ask because your perspective on being employed is at odds with my 20+ years of work experience. I have observed/experienced the following:

1) There are some factors the individual can control, and some he/she cannot. When the boss's son wants the job you have, there is nothing your will power can do to hang on to that job. That said.....

2) Every employer I have ever had actively discouraged anyone's looking for the next opportunity, a.k.a. "thinking for themselves ahead". I even had an employer demand that I leave a class that I had paid for myself, that I had taken vacation days (part of my agreement (contract!) with the firm) to take.

3) I know people working for profitable organizations in which entire departments were laid off. That decision had nothing to do with the will of those individuals, and everything to do with the wills of their management.

4) Looking for work is a full-time job itself. However, in the last 10 years, I have seen and personally experienced the "professional day" expanding from 7.5 hours to 10+ hours. Working on global projects, my typical day was 14 hours.

5) I have never met an employer who is willing to hire someone who he/she thinks may leave before the manager is ready for them to leave. Rarely, there are brief intervals in the business cycle where "job-hopping"--their word, not mine--is tolerated; for example, at the beginning of the Internet boom. But usually, indications of job-hopping are enough to get your resume put at the bottom of the pile. So when you are currently employed, if you manage to find an alternative job--do you take it?

6) Often the new job is not what you were told. Then what do you do? Look for another one is the obvious answer, but then we return to 5) above, and the cycle begins again.

May I suggest:

1) Could you perhaps specify in what ways you or people you know have avoided being impacted in downturn(s) by thinking ahead, analyzing and employing critical thinking into the future, and being able to successfully implement alternative plans? That is, what specific actions they have taken that have resulted in their full employment across business cycles? That would be very helpful.

2) Sweeping statements like your "It is sad to see the ...people without jobs now, but It is their fault..they are unable to think for themselves..' need a bit more examination. Given your premise that some people *are* genuinely unable to think for themselves (I have met some), how do we Objectivists cope with them? Objectivists still have to walk down the street and ride the subway, and we are impacted--in ways we can't control by our individual will--by beggars and people breathing swine flu viruses on us, for example. Surely Ayn Rand covered this idea somewhere--perhaps someone who is better versed in Objectivism can shed some light?

 

Cheers,

Judi Polson
Certified Project Management Professional (PMP)

-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Juan Carlos(a.k.a Johnny)
Sent: Thursday, April 30,[masked]:32 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine

 
 
It is a fact that corrupted people in Power control the rest of people by using these means of financial help to manipulate them with bankruptcy, bail outs, all that. This is corruption of the imperialistic entities! think gor a moment and see outside and you will see that the rest of the world hate us.
 
However, the objectivism philosophy centers in the will power of the individual to achieve and overcome difficult situations. It is sad to see the unemployment rate and people without jobs now, but It is their fault because they wait for the system and their jobs to take care of  them. they are unable to think for themselves ahead, analyze and have a critical thinking into the future with alternative plans to achieve their goals.
 

 

---

To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
From: [address removed]
Date: Thu, 30 A pr[masked]:03:40 -0400

If it wasn't for bankruptsy maybe people would be more careful with their money, [ or more appropriately with someone else's money ]     but with a government saftey net why woulndn't I gamble with your money.Does any of this sound familiar.
PS  If ther was no Frank LLoyd Wright or Heinz,or Barnum, or Hershey etc. their would have been someone else to take their place. Someone who was more careful with my money.You're not sure about bailouts? What the hell do you think a bailout is? I really could go on and on and on,but I feel I would be wasting my time.
PPS There is no Capitalism without the fear of failure.       
.


-Original Message-----
From: stevegam <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wed, 29 Apr[masked]:13 pm
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine

Never, is a long time.
 
What if Howard Roark ran out of money while he was trying to build a building?
 
Ok, forget Howard Roark, he's a fictional character, let's say Frank Lloyd Wright instead.
 
If it wasn't for government sanctioned redistribution of wealth, Frank Lloyd Wright could not have declared bankruptcy early in his career and would have been saddled with crippling debt which would have20prevented him from pursuing his dreams.
 
We succeed in life through failure. If it wasn't fo r bankruptcy there would have been no Frank Lloyd Wright.
 
Well, there would have been a Frank Lloyd Wright, but he would have been a little man with little plan and a lot of debt.
 
There certainly would not have been a Howard Roark.
 
Not to worry though, I'm not sure what Ayn Rand's view of bankruptcy was, but James Madison understood its importance.
 
He granted that right to all of us in the Constitution, he explained why in the federalist papers.
 
I agree with Madison on bankruptcy, his writing is most impressive.
 
There are very few people in society capable of being entrepreneurs; we don't want to encumber them, or ourselves with debt when we fail.
 
Without bankruptcy, capitalism would grind to a halt.
 
The problem is that bankruptcy laws are so abused that it is difficult to see their virtue.
 
Here's a short list of people failed at first, and who took advantage of bankruptcy:
Walt Disney - Walt Disney
Henry J. Heinz - Heinz
P.T. Barnum - Barnum and Bailey Circus
Milton S. Hershey - Hershey
Henry Ford - Ford Motor Company
J. C. Penny - J. C. Penny
Mark Twain
Roland Hussey Macy - Macy's
Conrad Hilton - Hilton Hotels
Sam Walton - Walmart

I'm not sure how I feel about the bailouts though.

Or Lauderly, its only a few emails,20why don't you delete them?

 

---

To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
From: [address removed]
Date: Wed, 29 Apr[masked]:24:06 -0400

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. Government is a necessary evil, instituted only to protect each individual citizen's rights.Every time they redistribute wealth it is more for the benifit of the person or group that redistributes somebody else's created wealth.


-----Original Message-----
From: Juan Carlos(a.k.a Johnny) <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wed, 29 Apr[masked]:04 pm
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine

I believe it is not ok because we should not never support corruption from the big firms and people that are not capable of living a smart independent and normal life.
 
 This is a great topic!!
 

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
Date: Wed, 29 Apr[masked]:57:38 -0400

Is it ever OK for20the government to redistribute wealth in a capitalist society?

Welfare, banckruptcy, bailouts
=0 A
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 25, 2009, at 12:51 PM, "Joel (Sparrowhawk)" <[address removed]> wrote:

Why are you on the Objectivist list? You are clearly not an Objectivist. Actually your are Kantian. Amazing!

 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of stevegam
Sent: Saturday, April 25,[masked]:46 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine

 

1. Religion is basically a set of believes and rules on how to live. Th e rules are there for you if you choose to use them. The alternative is to create your own rules with reason and then suffer the unintended consequences.

 

When two people follow the same religion they both know the rules each other is following. They are published for all to see. These rules have been tried and tested=2 0over thousands of year and under the most extreme human condition imaginable. They rarely change, because they work.

 

2. Facts can't be faulty, they are facts.

Reason is what is faulty if you are looking at the wrong facts. This usually happens when the really important facts are unknown to you.

 

3. People manipulate people, including themselves.

 

5. In life, you cannot use reason effectively unless you are all-knowing, a god. In computer science, bridge building, and many forms of technology we have enough knowledge to make decisions based on reason. In the financial marke ts, and in life in general rules work better than reason.

 

6. T here probably are no contradictions, but since I'm not all-knowing there are some apparent contradictions in life that I will never be able to explain.
 

---

0A

To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
From: [address removed]
Date: Sat, 25 Apr[masked]:42:47 -0400

#1. The belief in religion ia anathema to the belief in the indiviual.
#2. We use reason to determine the facts of a situation.When the facts are incorrect, it is not reason that is faulty, it is the facts.
#3.  It is the belief in religion that manipulates the masses.
#4.  The belief in religion is anathema to the belief in reason.
#5.  There is nothing more than reason.
#6.  Contradictions do not exist.


-----Original Message-----
From: katie <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Fri, 24 Apr[masked]:55 pm
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine

I read your first email. it was a stab at levity and also a tool to point out you had only used the hippie example (which further discussion dismissed as irrelevant t o the point which you were making).

 

Bacon's assertion is also that the relationship of philosophy is linear with an end point of religion. traveling only a bit on that line and you might find yourself an atheist.=2 0but if you were to see it through to the end, exhaust all possibilities, that you would settle down in a "whatever religion you were born into. "

i agree it happens a lot. more often then not. but it is not the rule. religion is not the only endpoint.

0A

 

Its not religion that manipulates the masses any more than its the gun that kills. Both are powerful and useful tools of man.
i agree, bc i view religion as seperate from spirituality: religion is a creation of man, but that hasnt been a distinction made in this discussion. I agree that man (wielding religion as a tool) is the manipulator. But this does not mean that religion is the innocuous ultimate trut h, over reason.

 

are you asserting that there are only two sides here... reason or religon?

do you think they are mutu ally exclusive, or do you just want someone to confirm that there is an argument for religion along side of reason?

I won't confirm that belief. it is not mine to confirm. if it was your belief, you would not need my confirmation of it. you would need only to trust your own ability to re ason.

if they seem to run parallel at points, that is all well and good, but at many points, there exist contradictions. one negates the other, and vice versa. which contendor wins out? reason or religon?

 

do you need both to survive and thrive ? can you survive on religion alone? 

i have no problem with your contention of the masses. but you arent contending. you aren't arguing for something. you are arguing against something:

 "Reason20is man's distinctive means of self-preservation".

how does religion, the acceptance or reliance on religion, negate that axiom ?

since that is the part you don't agree with, what then do you offer as reasonable evidence that it is not true ? how do you negate it within your own understanding?

 

 

 

---

From: stevegam <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, April 24,[masked]:21:26 PM
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine

Yes, I have read Atlas Shrugged.
 
If you don't know what the "rot" is then you didn't read my first email.
 
You have to go back to my original email. Search for "San Francisco in 1968"
 
I don't want to argue with you. I want to confirm my belief that there is something more than reason.
 
"It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's mind s about to religion." - Francis Bacon
 
Is this true?
 
This is what I want to discuss.
 

 

---

0A

From: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
To: [address removed]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr[masked]:06:18 -0400

well, since i am in an agrumentative mood now...

 

What kind of trouble specifically. Did you get "the rot" ?

Let's talk in real world examples, then. because, i think your contention is that the ideas are good, they just dont work in the real world. I contend that they do. If I find that they do not seem to.... I check my premises.

 

 

---

From: stevegam <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, April 24,[masked]:58:08 PM
Subject: RE: [aynrand- 8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine

I just want to add the fundamentally I agree with Ayn Rand and you guys on most issues, that's why I joined.
 
Its just that in my own experience, I have seen that faulty reason can get you into trouble.
  I know it has for me.

 

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
Date: Fri, 24 Apr[masked]:48:50 -0400

Howard Roark was likely patterned after Frank Lloyd Wright.
 
Frank Lloyd Wright was a narcissist.
 
Maybe narc issist is too strong a word.
What I mean is someone who thinks he knows all he need to know about the world so that he only needs reason to determine what is true.
 

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorke r magazine
Date: Fri, 24 Apr[masked]:15:32 -0400

 
You have to understand that reason is the guide of humanity and without the power of reason, there is no society based on laws. Without reason, It would be chaos and we will be at the beggining of times when the men did not have the ability to evolve and progress due to the limited power of thinking20and reasoning.
 
In addition, why you mentioned that objectivism is narcissistic and that's what teenagers do. This is a complete misunderstanding because objectivism is centered inthe power of reasoning not narcism. You need to get educated to understand these two concepts. 
 
Ayn Rand mentioned that you need to develop your own criteria and reasoning power. If most teenagers have this power of thinking, they will be able to set free from the consumer and media brainwash.
 
In my case when I was a teenager, I was so focused and mature that I20did not have to follow any media stupid lifestyles.now, I am a successful professional. Answer these questions:
 
are you happy with what you do for leaving? do you consider yourself successful? are you a mediocre person? what are your doubts? are you a wothless hippie?
 
Objectivism showed me a way to achieve success by reasoning and for me it is important to be aware of its potential , especially, in this capitalistic/imperialistic modern society.
 
Johnny 

=0 D

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
Date: Fri, 24 Apr[masked]:00:27 -0400

I have been unable to attend any meeting20as of yet since I have been travelling a lot on business.
 
I agree with Ayn Rand's politics, but I disagree with her philosophy.
 
Particularly her Epistemology.
 
I don't think that "Reason is man's distinctive means of self-preservation".
 
Generally, humans are not reasonable or objective.
 
"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do."
-Ben Franklin's Autobiography
 
Objectivism is a=2 0very narcissistic way to live. You believe that in the short time you have been here, you are smart enough to figure out how the world works on your own and then act on your conclusions and expect success.
 
That's what teenagers do. We have all done it and it has gotten us all in trouble at one time or another.
 
Here is one example (I could provide endless examples) of using reason to determine how to live:
 
On visiting San Francisco in 1968, Tom Wolfe stumbled across what he describes as a cu rious footnote to the hippie movement.
 
At the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic there were doctors treating diseases n o living doctor had ever encountered before, diseases that had disappeared so long ago they had never even picked up Latin names, diseases such as the mange, the grunge, the itch, the twitch, the thrush, the scroff, the rot.
 
The diseases returned, says Wolfe, because the hippies li ving in the communes wanted to sweep away "codes and restraints" including those that said you shouldn't use other people's toothbrushes or sleep on other people's mattresses without changing the sheets or, as was more likely, without using sheets at all, or that you and five other people shouldn't drink from the same bottle of Shasta or take tokes from the same cigarette.
Wolfe points out that by getting the mange, the grunge, the itch, the twitch, the thrush, the scroff, and the rot, the hippies were "relearning" the laws of hygiene.
 
  ;
 
Its best to live mostly by rules and use reason sparingly. Rules aquired by trial and error over thousands of years of history and millions of human minds, and then passed on to future generations. Religion is a good source of rules, pick one, why reinvent the wheel, any major one will do. Better yet, stick with the one you were born with.
 
I'm not a religious fanatic (there are two types; those who love religion, and those who hate it) and I'm not looking to make enemies either. 
 
I  just want to hear the group's opinion on this. 

 

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [aynrand-8] An article about our group in The New Yorker magazine
D ate: Wed, 15 Apr[masked]:31:12 -0400

And it's a nice one, too. It's what got me to join!

 

Ed

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Benny Pollak <[address removed]> wrote:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2009/04/13/090413ta_talk_widdicombe

In case you don't subscribe,=2 0you can read the full article with a free registration.

Benny




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