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Re: [furries-290] A Few Ambitions

From: Alex M.
Sent on: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:06 AM
On Thu, 30 Aug[masked]:11:09 -0400
Amaroq <[address removed]> wrote:

> I really have to disagree strongly with a good amount of what you
> just said. It's impossible for there to be a good dictator. 

A dictator doesn't HAVE to force people to obey at gunpoint. There is
always the choice to not act.

The opposite of dictatorship is anarchy. Anarchy SOUNDS nice but I
really don't want to discuss this.

> No matter
> how well-intentioned, it's impossible to achieve good by controlling
> people. Human nature is such that we flourish the best when we're
> free to think and act on our own judgment. Any person or any
> government initiating force prevents people from acting on their own
> judgment.

Anarchy sounds good at first, but how are we going to achieve it?

Anarchy-capitalism is what I would prefer, where there is no real
authorized initator of force, in the sense of being legitimized in
their initation of force.

But this will never happen while government of any kind exists.

We could attempt to reform existing government to get as close to
direct electronic democracy as possible, but again, how do we
transition to that?

There are existing powers that are neither you nor I, and we have
almost no power against them.

> The creation of wealth depends on the ability of free people to
> produce and trade with each other. Interposing your judgment 

my judgement?

> between
> their judgment and their actions stifles their ability to live the
> way they think is best for them, and destroys actual and potential
> wealth. Thus it's counterproductive for you to say you want a good
> dictatorship to help you accomplish your dream of a spacefaring
> society. 

Fair enough.

I would never want a permanent dictatorship, that's for certain.

But a strong leadership may be necessary to transition to electronic
direct democracy or a form of true anarchy, in order to combat existing
governments, and the powers that control them.

> You'll need those people to continue voluntarily trading and
> creating wealth in order to have someone to trade with yourself.
> Trying to impose your dreams with a dictatorship will actually work
> to destroy your chance to realize those dreams. And you'll destroy
> everyone else's dreams in the process.
> I would also say most humans don't objectively act in their
> self-interest. :P You might be confusing self-interest for hedonism,
> which I don't consider to be in your self-interest. 

Utilitarianism is a form of hedonism when balanced by scientific
enlightenment. Unfortunately, Utilitarianism seems to be a scientific
ideal that no actual human could ever obey. We'll see.

> A drug addict is
> a good example of this. Just because you want something doesn't
> necessarily mean it's in your self-interest.

This depends on the drug. Not all drugs are bad, nor are all drugs
necessarily harmful to you, or even against your actual self interest.

What you are saying is, "what you want isn't necessarily what you need."

Turning the precept of "Let the people decide for themselves" around,
who determines that something someone wants ISN'T what they need? Why
NOT allow the market to supply drugs to those who want them?

> This whole time, I've been speaking of humans in general. But you
> seem set on making this a furry exclusive thing. That's gonna make it
> tougher I'm sure. Maybe even impossible, or close to impossible.

I am not making it exclusive to furries, but I do want to make it a
central headquarters for furry culture, similar to how Salt Lake City
is a LOT MORE than just the headquarters of Mormon culture and society,
it's a city in it's own right, and many non-LDS insurance corporations
are headquartered there. Salt Lake City contains many mormons, but it's
not a purely mormon city.

By saying this, I am not comparing furry fan community culture and
society with a religion, as that would be comparing apples with
oranges, but subculture to subculture, we don't have a central
headquarters, yet, whereas the subculture that exists within the
structure of the mormon church, does, at salt lake city.

Seattle could BECOME that furry mecca, or rather, a specific portion
within Seattle could become that furry mecca.

It would NOT, however, be furry exclusive.

I apologize in advance if I cannot reply, because is highly
restricting my ability to send emails to this mailing list.

I should also note that I'm not truly a fan of dictatorships, because
finding a good dictator is, as you said, impossible.

> ---------------
> ~Amaroq Wolf
> ____________________­____________
>  From: Alex Maurin <[address removed]>
> To: [address removed] 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29,[masked]:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [furries-290] A Few Ambitions
> I would tend to agree, Amaroq, that there's nothing wrong with what my
> dad calls "Enlightened Self-Interest."
> It means that although you recognize that all humans ultimately act in
> their own self interest 99.8% of the time or whatever, you can delay
> gratification, and IF you are patient enough to invest wisely, etc,
> you can actually improve the quality of life for many people by "You
> scratch my back, I scratch yours" type of deals.
> Business, and by extension, corporations, are not evil by definition,
> unless you're an agorist, who believes that chartering with a
> government automatically makes you evil as an extension of that
> government.
> No, Although direct electronic democracy can theoretically be a good
> thing, really, what we need is a GOOD dictator. The problem is "How do
> we find a GOOD dictator?" which leads to "How do we ensure the
> good dictator is actually a well-intentioned and competent person?"
> I'm hoping that a dictatorship that's informed by up to the
> millisecond news and information using a digital infrastructure for
> feedback on decision-making and clear representation by every
> significant group of society, we could build a REALLY EPIC
> Space-Faring society and culture which really would colonize the
> stars.
> Enlightened self-interest is not bad, only myopic ignorant greed is
> bad, where you ignorantly destroy your capital for short-term gains
> when and kill the goose that lays the golden egg, along with every
> cash cow. It's stupidity.
> No, what you do is collar the cash cows and gold-laying gooses, treat
> them nicely, but give them cell phones, insurance policies, and
> gps-tracking collars, and make them feel supremely safe and content to
> be in your household. Make them never want to leave.
> This is the smart thing to do.
> I do not know if I will ever make the kind of money that would be
> required to pay SpaceX to deliver the colonization equipment to the
> moon, but I'm damned if I'm not going to try. It's TOO COOL not to!
> Arx Ferae here on Earth, though, will probably start off as just a
> Furry Village within the Seattle metropolitan area. Start out as a
> collection of buildings, and eventually "colonize" an entire skyline
> condo building over time. Thing is, if I can make enough money, I
> could help people pay off their mortgages, which would enable them to
> do other things.
> We'll see.
> Actuary science is a pretty good career, but to make the truly big
> bucks, I need to see if I can't break into investment banking.
> Investment banking is buying and selling stocks and bonds, mutual
> funds and the like, raising capital for corporations, and the buying
> out and merging of corporations.
> Since the Glass Steagall Banking Act of 1933 was repealed in 1999, you
> can be ALL THREE: an insurance corporation, retail bank, and
> investment bank all in one, thus concentrating the wealth as much as
> possible
> So long as you are wise, responsible, and judicious with the money
> saved, concentrating the wealth in a single place like this is
> theoretically a good thing, in that you can then make bigger deals and
> give better rates to your clients. 
> A cooperative bank is a good idea, and I'll certainly look into it,
> but I'm also looking at a hybrid system as well, where it's one third
> consumer's cooperative, one third worker's cooperative, and one third
> traditional joint-stock corporation.
> We'll see.
> I have not decided exactly what I want to do, but I'm considering the
> concept of a geek/hacker and furry-oriented credit union that
> eventually expands into a hybrid cooperative bank.
> It would make more money than game middleware, as much fun as that
> would be. No, why not reach for the stars?
> So basically, my TENTATIVE plan is to become a financial actuary, do
> that for about 10 years, build up money, then found a credit union
> oriented around artists, geeks/hackers, and furries, make that my
> niche to start out with, maybe even partner with DeviantArt or
> Electronic Frontier Foundation? Along the next 10 years, I'd
> eventually mutate the credit union into a hybrid semi-cooperative
> bank and insurance corporation.
> If I follow this plan, I would specialize in pet insurance, mortgages
> and loans for housing cooperatives, and merges and acquisitions
> related to cooperatives of any kind. I need a niche if I am to survive
> financially.
> So, we'll see how I'm going to make the money in order to reach for
> the stars, but even if I DONT end up being capable of colonizing the
> moon, I can still do a LOT of good, strengthening our culture and
> society here on Earth doing my utter best to try.
> On Wed, 29 Aug[masked]:56:56 -0400
> Amaroq <[address removed]> wrote:
> > There's something I want to say here that would probably be more
> > fitting as a response to the previous topic. But it would be
> > negative if I brought it up there, and positive if I brought it up
> > here, so I choose to do it here.
> >
> > Someone said that greed is one of the things that will destroy the
> > human race. But THIS is what greed really is. Just wanting something
> > for yourself. Having an ambition and following it. If you remove all
> > of the negatives that people always package in with that concept,
> > greed is really a good thing. Greed brought us every innovation we
> > have, and lifted our standard of living from the point where we were
> > dying in our teens and twenties to the point where we can relax on
> > over 100 degree days due to air conditioning, electricity, and we
> > have this amazing system called the internet, and computers that
> > we're using to instantly talk to each other right now. Etc etc etc
> > etc etc.
> > 
> > People wanting something for themselves and working for it is what
> > lifted us up. Not what will destroy us. Whether it's Henry Ford
> > inventing the assembly line, or his employees working on it.
> > Everyone who wants something and works for it not only lifts
> > themselves, but lifts society up as a secondary consequence. So
> > dream big, and if you really think you can do it, pursue those
> > dreams. Who knows. You might be the, or one of the, people who does
> > finally bring the rest of us to the moon someday.
> > 
> > 
> > (It's not in a bank's greedy self-interest to lend to people who
> > can't pay it back. Because if the person doesn't pay it back, the
> > bank loses money. It's traditionally the bank's own ass on the line
> > when they lend, which means they have to be careful about who they
> > lend it to. But government guaranteed loans, the existence of the
> > Fed, and other interventions in the economy, made it so the banks
> > didn't have to worry about going under if they made bad loans.
> > Essentially, some goody two-shoes said "It's greedy and evil that
> > banks won't lend to people who can't afford it",  implemented a
> > government policy that makes it so banks can/have to lend to those
> > who can't afford it, and now we're blaming the banks instead of the
> > government, where the blame really lies.)
> > 
> >  
> > ---------------
> > ~Amaroq Wolf
> > 
> > 
> > ____________________­____________
> >  From: Keeko <[address removed]>
> > To: [address removed] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29,[masked]:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [furries-290] A Few Ambitions
> >  
> > 
> > I like the idea. XD It's not a bad thing to have such lofty goals, I
> > totally want to see moon colonies happen, and I wish you the best of
> > luck! On Aug 28,[masked]:04 PM, "Alex Maurin" <[address removed]>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > And now for something completely different:
> > >
> > >http://www.spacex...­
> > >
> > >What do you guys think about the idea of a lunar colony complete
> > >with hotels and condos?
> > >
> > >Would you consider moving to the moon?
> > >
> > >The colonies would probably be underground and pressurized, and the
> > >industry would largely the mining of titanium and exotic metals,
> > >and maybe even helium-3.
> > >
> > >Although helium-3 is theoretical, the titanium export would bring
> > >in the money necessary to build in enough manufacturing equipment
> > >and planetary support to construct additional pylons-- i mean
> > >factories on the moon, and allow us to build entire cities with
> > >multiple mining operations across the lunar surface.
> > >
> > >Something I'm going to shoot for with my degree in mathematics is
> > >to attempt building up enough capital to found a lunar colony.
> > >
> > >Yes, I know it's highly ambitious, but I have an actual shot at
> > >doing it.
> > >
> > >With a degree in mathematics, i can balance between finance and
> > >actuary science, and astrophysics and aeronautics.
> > >
> > >This way, i can make the money necessary to get the funding i need
> > >to actually put together a business plan to colonize the moon.
> > >
> > >I can see it now: low gravity bouncing fursuiters parading in a
> > >space hotel on the moon.. x3
> --
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