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London Vegan Meetup Message Board › This is where I stand...and I think every vegan should stand for it as well.

This is where I stand...and I think every vegan should stand for it as well.

A former member
Post #: 34
here is some more info in case someone needs more about "happy meat" ;))

http://www.peacefulpr...­

"Not all farms are like this"? Please Read

http://www.peacefulpr...­

For more information, visit:

http://www.PeacefulPr...­
Ben C.
user 63241732
London, GB
Post #: 6
Ruth, I'm not sure you're seeing what is being said here. You don't need to tell vegans that* eating meat is unethical. That is probably the main reason most people become vegan, or at least a very large one. You make some valid points to be sure but for me at least we'll have to agree to disagree here. Clearly we have very different perspectives on what is achievable and what constitutes an improvement. As that is the case I'm not sure this discussion is going to bear much more fruit. I wish you luck with your campaigning however!

[edit: *using animal products]
A former member
Post #: 35
Ben, your answer is exactly what I have been telling about...that this is not a matter of opinion, the links I put here because when you state that you support welfare and people going vegetarian (could you explain me the difference between the pain and death cause by a meat eater and a vegetarian, please!), you seem to be very confused as what that means...I am just trying to help you analyse your own position.
A former member
Post #: 36
Ben I am not saying that eating meat is unethical, I AM SAYING THAT USING ANY ANIMAL PRODUCTS IS UNETHICAL, BEING IT FOR FOOD, FOR CLOTHES, ETC. AND THIS IS VERY VERY DIFFERENT THAN SINGLE OUT THAT IS UNETHICAL TO EAT MEAT...
Tim
user 7024040
London, GB
Post #: 2
Ruth

I also think you may have misread what others have said... I don't think you need to convince most (probably virtually all) vegans that all exploitation of animals by humans is unethical. I expect virtually all vegans would rather live in a world without animal exploitation

Where the differences lie may be in our attitude towards other people (non-vegans) and campaigning that isn't 'abolitionist'. As I read it, you're saying that campaigning that isn't explicitly abolitionist is / can be counterproductive to achieving a world free of animal exploitation and may be counterproductive to achieving even a reduction in animal suffering. If that's what you're saying, then I'm afraid I have a different viewpoint

This sort of 'realist/fundamentalist' split crops up time and time again, not just in animal rights but in politics and movements generally. In my view it's actually the splits between the 'realists' and the 'fundamentalists' that are counterproductive (eg if all vegans denounced CIWF because they don't go further than a 'welfarist' approach or if CIWF refused to listen to vegans because they were all 'hardline'). Actually I think we can all be both realists and fundamentalists in our own ways. Most of us make end up making compromises one way or another, eg in who we work for, how we travel, what stuff we buy and who we buy it from etc etc. Eg I am sure I've bought stuff that's been made in some far eastern sweat shop while being blissfully unaware of it. There was a time when I was more fundamentalist in my own lifestyle (eg living in a tipi, only using a bicycle for transport and growing a lot of my own food) but that didn't last for very long. Fortunately being vegan is one fairly fundamental commitment that (when you're used to it) doesn't involves major sacrifices (especially in the UK/London) and I still believe that it's the single most important thing anyone can do both ethically and environmentally

But let's face it, there still aren't that many vegans out there and that's unlikely to change overnight. And the collective impact of vegans isn't that great alongside the global farming/food industry. Meantime, I believe any change for the better is a good thing, whether that's people generally reducing their meat/dairy/animal product consumption, restricting their consumption to animal products that are genuinely 'more humane' (and there definitely is a spectrum of inhumaneness/cruelty) or NGOs and politicians achieveing incremental improvements in welfare across the board (eg ban on barren battery cages, ban on sow stalls, any restriction/halting of live exports...)

When I refer to people as 'realists' I don't mean that their personal morals, beliefs, lifestyle, actions etc are necessarily any less 'fundamental' than people I am referring to as 'fundamentalists'. The only difference may be in how they engage with / relate to other people and society at large

I don't expect people to see things as I do though. Apart from anything the world would be a boring place if we all had the same viewpoints. And the world definitely needs 'fundamentalists' to keep us all focussed on the long term goal. Some people will be swayed by an 'abolitionist'/'absolutist'/'fundamental­ist' approach, some people won't. I don't believe in hiding from / hiding people from the truth... on the other hand casting moral judgement on people is often a sure way to turn them right off. For myself, I tend to be quite fundamentalist with myself but more of a realist with other people. I don't much mind people judging me morally, but I don't like being told what I should or shouldn't believe (beyond what is fact), eg that 'welfarism' is generally counterproductive to reducing and/or ending all exploitation

Anyhow, just my views

Tim
A former member
Post #: 37
Well Said Tim, There isn't many vegans out there...how could there be if some much welfare publicity is telling people that it is ok to use animal products, publicity this which is (for the looks of it) supported by some 'Vegans'

As I said before, this is not a matter of opinion, this is not about you or me, it is about the animals which die and will continue to die as long as some people advocate vegetarianism and "humane" killing, such as CWIF, RSPCA, PETA etc.

I'm glad I don't have to convince, as you put it, all vegans that is unethical all exploitation of animals, but what people been saying here, quite plainly (I think you haven't read the comments?) is that although they supposedly belief in the non exploitation of the animals they are advocating the exploitation of the animals...because by telling people to go vegetarian or support the farmer business charity on the human killing is contradictory to their beliefs...

well, if you have evidence that shows your viewpoint is correct, then please supply, otherwise that's what fundamentalism is about.

I hope no one thinks that veganism and the abolition of animal exploitation is like religion, either you believe it or you don't believe it...

Who is casting moral judgement? all I said is that people should not lie to the non-vegans as some have repeatedly said in this discussion...because if you know the facts and you tell people it is ok to be vegetarian, etc. obviously that is dishonest...
Lucy
user 79582512
London, GB
Post #: 1
I’m a proud active supporter of CIWF.

I was vegetarian for 15 years and had never considered the life and death of dairy cows. I didn’t know that modern cows had been bred to produce milk at unnatural levels. I didn’t make the link between dairy and veal/live exports.

I was ignorant and the organisation that gave me the information and support to become informed was CIWF after I met sweet elderly lady sitting all alone on a stand in the middle of a busy Nottingham shopping centre. She was very positive and interesting and simply suggested I find out more on the CIWF website. The images, facts and practical advice I found changed my way of thinking and after several years of reduction / organic – I am now dairy free.

There is widespread ignorance of farm animal sentience. We have pet sheep and people are just staggered to hear that they are individuals with very different personalities and quirks. My personal belief is that CIWF has a very important role in raising awareness of farm animal sentience amongst the general population and encouraging people to consider how animals live and die for us.

I’ve met CIWF members who are interested in veganism after finding out more about the dairy and egg industries. However they are concerned that it’s too extreme and the aggressive abolitionist postings on the CIWF Facebook page are not helping persuade them that veganism is positive, achievable and something they should embrace and feel proud of. I point them to blogs like PPK and FGV as they are what finally persuaded me that veganism was achievable and even aspirational.

Peter Roberts as the evil head of a world wide conspiracy to encourage more animal cruelty? Paedophilia compared with vegetarianism? Unwanted animals living for years in cages instead of being humanely put to sleep by a RSCPA vet? (The ‘shelter’ I got my two cats from was a disgrace and the very well meaning ladies who ran it were proud to tell me they never put an animal down)

Sorry, I don’t believe any of it. Agree with posts above that we should agree to disagree on some issues - we are stronger together, pursuing a common goal of persuading as many people as possible that veganism is a healthy and achievable lifestyle which benefits people, animals and the planet. We should celebrate what we have in common and work together.
Kari
Kari_N12
London, GB
Post #: 15
Lucy - I completely agree with you. I am 100% vegan, 100% animal rights, 100% abolitionist in my ethics. But I applaud every individual and organisation that is trying to reduce animal cruelty and I believe that every step an individual may make in the right direction is worth something. Humans don't all work the same - we have different motivations, triggers and limits. People who will never go vegan may well become a meat-free Monday person and I will celebrate every animal that saves. We are a tiny minority working against deeply entrenched beliefs and behaviours that we oppose, so we have to focus on what unites us, and on moving people in the right direction, even if they never reach the right destination. Being absolutist and judgemental alienates our fellow humans and does not help our cause. Kari x
A former member
Post #: 38
I can only say, how sad I am for the animals, considering the postings and the level of ignorance and lack of reason presented in them :(((

It so very sad,but I am convinced that no one here is really pro animal abolition, but it is simply helping out the regulation of animal exploitation...with their agenda.

Good luck with that, I will be on the other side fighting for animal rights!
Kari
Kari_N12
London, GB
Post #: 16
Stay with us Ruth, we are on the same side, same goals, we just differ about method. We are all stronger together. x
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