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The San Francisco Philosophy Group Message Board › Kabir's Ulatbamsi and the Metaphor Discussion

Kabir's Ulatbamsi and the Metaphor Discussion

Brandon C.
user 13625235
Weirton, WV
Post #: 19
I didn't want to bring it up during the group because I figured no one there would know who Kabir was.... there is a book in the main library called 'The Bijak of Kabir' from the 15th century on the Sunni-Hindu vaultline in India.... his family being sort of recent converts, straddled between two civiliations (a central topic of the theology-philosophy of the era.... I could go into a deep discussion of Emperor Akbar and his son's philosophy here, but won't.)

Appendix A: 'Upside Down Language' deals with the topic we were discussing in a much more informative light..... it really begins to tie things in that was left unsaid in the discussion.... had I tried to say it, I would of had to go into a lot of background on the guy contextually- his era and the philosophical and religious divides that were occuring and how it effects philosophy.... I saw no possibility of doing so without myself falling asleep before everyone else fleeing..... but I also see no possibility of moving forward in such a topic without hitting him or Bergson or Lacan.... and the only familiarity anyone seemed to have had had was with Lacan (one read some of bergson's article on comedy). He straddles a divide in the mind that the Buddhist art of contradictory koan making flows forth from. It seems so deeply central to the discussion.

the first paragraph to the appendix
"A particularly intriguing category of Kabir's poems is the type known as ulatbamsi, poems in 'upside down language.' They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet purport to be meaningful. Kabir's upside-side down poems are part of a long tradition in India and can be related to similar expressions across the world. They are two main routes to understanding their strange symbols and assertions: study of esoteric traditions, and direct intuition. The first route is very complex, and the second is very elusive.'

His poems are a good read, highly suggest them. It's a excellent jumping off point into a analysis of visual-orienting complexes of complex symbology such as in the Forest Treatise on trying to create a symbolic field that evolves with the practicioner's evolving capacity to orient to and construct in real time a deeper reality psychologically on the pure perceptive end of incoming information as well as a aesthetically informative on one of every greater intimacy and understanding of complexity of the object of contemplation.... this too reverts back to the Tibetan Mandala and most of their inherent dualism to invoke variants in the viewers psychology as time goes on in contemplation and living.

It is equally a good place to leap into Platonic ideals of beauty, ugliness, form.... or proto-taoist ideals of form and formlessness..... in our arts and literature, and examining at how our civilization sustains and grows itself as it does. The discussion we had on metaphors does stab at near the center of this, and is a awesome segway to it.

Brandon C.
user 13625235
Weirton, WV
Post #: 20
figure I should include this paragraph too to get a few of you to check it out:

'The sandha-bhasa.... seeks.... chiefly to project the yogin into the 'paradoxical situation' indispensable to his training. The semantic polyvalence of words finally substitutes ambiguity for the usual system of reference inherent in ordinary language. And this destruction of language contributes, in it's way too, towards 'breaking' the profane universe and replacing it by a universe of convertible and integrable planes. In general, symbolism brings about a universal 'porousness', 'opening' beings and things to transobjective meanings. But in tantrism 'intentional language' becomes a mental exercise, forms an integral part of sadhana. The disciple must constantly experience the mysterious process of homologization and convergence that is at the root of cosmic manifestation, for he himself has now become a microcosm and, by 'awakening' them, he must become conscious of all the forces that, on various planes, periodically create and absorb the universes. It is not only to hide the Great Secret from the noninitiate that he is asked to understand bodicitta as once as 'thought of awaken' and semen virile, though language itself 9that is, by creation of a new and paradoxial speech replacing the destroyed profane language) the yopgin must enter into the plane on which semen can be transformed into thought, and vice versa.'

This hits the essay by davidson hard.... it's something that needs to be considered.

Brandon C.
user 13625235
Weirton, WV
Post #: 21­

this was the song dealing with how we know we die- a ending topic of the discussion. It's a pretty nice song, never heard of anyone every hating it- very touching song that hits upon our knowledge both archetypal and 'proto-becoming' concepts of death that hits up very early on in life, and stays with the individual, the unit, the marriage, in every bond of civilization and of the very essence of civilization.... that we fully comprehend our deaths, it's not a concern of meaningful or illogic, cruelty or peace.... we fully comprehend this bewilderment..... and it's at the start of every undertaking. The final breath taken by the high jump diver during the Olympics, the nervousness of the paratrooper upon standing with his file before the open aircraft door waiting for the green, of the dancer in the desert wilderness, of the every lover embrace, inherent in every song, every heart beat felt consciously.... it's the core essential of Frank Herbert's concept of 'Siaynoq' in all it's long evolutions from orgies to wars to discussions with a all powerful monarch, to the unconscious dance with the devil on the desert's edge- the totality evolution of the human-ecological synthesis. I would have to agree with him in this sense. Our search for malleability against our own understandings of nature and our own motivations do fall back against this phenomena in play and in war. This is something that was picked up by other writers in the 29th century, such as Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's observations of men in the first world war in combat- he saw a deep religious significance in the action of such assurity in the action itself..... with mortality but also a seeming platonic image overlapping it as it being a means to a end. I see this image in this song. I also see my doubts, and the absurdities I've experience in life. But I also see it as part of it. Contemplation of death brings a sweet knowing smile to my lips, and I see anything less as brutish violence incarnate, the harbinger of chaos in the same sense wire is the conductor of electricity- it electrical in it's phenomena.... but not electric in and of itself- but such a division of semantics matters not one damn bit to the squirrel chewing on the live wire in the attic..... and clearly didn't to the 25 dead squirrels around it who tried to chew the wire. Perhaps I am Nietzschean in this respect. It's was Frank's response to Nietzsche.

We may not know the specifics of how we will die, but we always know in a sense the stages of death, how we would react, etc.... and what it means to us. We can see this play throughout our literature. It seems to be a central theme in our civilization. It was for so long in the martyrdom of Christianity.

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