Re: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

From: Leigh S.
Sent on: Monday, February 4, 2013 1:25 PM
Phil,
 
The illegal immigrants of today have been very upfront about not assimilating.  The Italians and the Irish and all the other nationalities during the last hundred years didn't act like the current crop of immigrants.  They didn't march in the streets carrying their national flags.  Instead they enrolled in night school to learn English and work toward becoming citizens.  This current crop take their pay stubs and electric bills to the authorities and get ahead in line for citizenship.  And years ago the Italians and the rest didn't use groups like La Raza to segregate themselves from the rest of America and talk about annexing portions of America to their native country (the country where they couldn't make it, thus causing them to sneak in here).
 
Leigh


It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money. P.J. O'Rourke



From: Phil Boncer <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sun, February 3,[masked]:44:36 PM
Subject: [ronpaul-93] RE: Amnesty attempt again and again

+1 to Cameron; nicely put.

 

In addition, Ryan, if you look at history and our past waves of immigration, and the responses from the people who have opposed them, they ALL look just like your diatribe.  They don’t assimilate; they don’t speak the language; they keep to themselves; they leech off the state; they commit crimes; they’re dirty; they demand this and that; etc., etc.  It’s ALWAYS looked just like that, and it’s ALWAYS taken a generation or two for the new influx to mix in.  It’s a process, and the Mexicans are following it the same as the Italians and the Irish and the Polish and all the rest of them have.  The people who move here don’t fit in, stick close together, but bust their asses to give their children better lives.  Their kids speak the old language at home, learn English in school, translate for their parents, exist half-and-half, move to other neighborhoods, and bust their asses to give their children better lives.  Their children speak English at home, speak only a few words of the old language with their grandparents, and pretty much fit in with the rest of us.  Look around at the Mexicans around you, and you’ll see that exact same pattern.

 

The problem of the costs really IS the programs WE have created with socialist support systems – that’s the system that is taking from the productive and giving to others.  WE can stop those program, and WE should be spending our energy doing that, not scapegoating the recipients.  I don’t really see why it’s somehow different that immigrants take advantage of those systems from Americans who do the same – a freeloader is a freeloader, and I’m not any happier (indeed less happy) about my money being stolen to support an American meth addict in public housing than I am about it being stolen to support educating the children of an undocumented foreigner who is busting his ass washing dishes or cleaning houses or landscaping of meatpacking or whatever.

 

PhilB

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On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Cameron Butler wrote:

 

Giving guns to people who then go on to murder?  The problem with that analogy is there is nothing wrong, morally, with you giving a gun to someone.  In your analogy the only ones committing an offense from a moral standpoint are the ones who proceed to murder.

Conversely, in the actual situation, government is taking from the rest of us through taxation and the threat of force and redistributing a big portion to people who are not citizens.  Perhaps a better analogy would be you going out and stealing a bunch of stuff and then giving it to people and they are guilty of accepting stolen property.  Yes, still guilty, but which is the bigger offense??

"having the states cater to their needs when it comes to signs, special treatment, etc." - are illegals themselves really forcing the catering, or is it liberal / nanny state politicians trying to pander to a constituency.  Who is actually responsible for the "catering"?

Those of us who are blaming government in this whole equation and not the immigrants keep getting accused throughout this thread of thinking the weight of immigrants on our system is not a problem (or favoring "no borders", or such nonsense).  To the contrary, we recognize the weight of the problem, we just think the blame is deservedly layed at the feet of out-of-control government.  Those who cannot see government encouraging/promoting, enabling, and "catering" to these problems is "clearly not leaving [their] home".
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On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Ryan <[address removed]> wrote:

No one denies the incentive and the "cause". But to presume people aren't taking advantage of it, knowingly, and people are just fine with not learning English, assimilating and having the states cater to their needs when it comes to signs, special treatment ect.. is just ridiculous.

So basically, if I give guns out to people and a lot of them start shooting others, it's not their problem right? The symptom (me) is. It's the same thing. There are causes and effects in life. One doesn't exist with out the other. Government welfare, and a hugely large population ( millions raging into double digits ) of non-English speaking individuals who many collectively come together and just pretend the U.S doesn't exist, are both problems.

It's not 5 people here. This is years of witnessing this change and lack of care. And if you deny it, while living in California , you're clearly not leaving your home. Can we honestly say here that if millions of us decided to move to a country and refused to speak the language, gathered up together and interacted only with each other, demanded signs for us that we could read, to drive, to get library cards and bus basses that after a certain amount of time that wouldn't cause friction?

Why is the U.S, with the most diverse population in the world so great? People at least understand English, they've assimilated with out removing their culture ( unless they wanted too ) and became American citizens first. Take all three of those criteria away and apparently it's noting but people trying to find a scapegoat? lol, ok.





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