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ETHICS & REALITY in Practice: Real People Talking Honestly Message Board › Sex With Consenting Adult ANIMALS...Dogs

Sex With Consenting Adult ANIMALS...Dogs

A former member
Post #: 200

Its extremely difficult for me to render judgment on a whole society. I find it more useful to identify specific behaviors to identify as either ethical or not.

That said. No. I cannot see that stigmatizing any form of normal, healthy human expression is ethical. In fact, I suspect that skewed standards of this sort are actually at the root of much harmful and deviant behavior.
Richard M.
Group Organizer
Portland, OR
Post #: 54
There is so much IMMORAL and UNJUST about our society its easy for me to say "no."

Of course, "society" doesn't exist, only individual human beings. Most of them get their sense of morality from the culture, "most" in that most people don't think, just react. The culture comes from the history of its religions, national myths, heroes, philosophers, etc. Without Augustine, where would we be? With a lot less sexual repression, that's for sure.

But sexual repression of women isn't just cultural, I'm sure its hardwired within us. It is sooo nice to find someone we can look down on for some reason. Our species is obsessed with sex and women being a big part of that, it will always be there.

It clearly spews from the subconscious. In my neighborhood we have Karen Mennis. The Speaker of the House of Representatives in Oregon she lead a furious fight against the "homosexual agenda." Tooth and nail she fought the queer drive to turn us all into deviates. Clearly, there was something wrong in her head. Turns out, her husband was a wild sexual abuser of women in his workplace, some kind of state bureau. At least he was charged with it. She married him, what was going on with her? Whatever it was, she spit it out all over the rest of us.

Also in my neighborhood, some crazy Christians took over the school board of the Parkrose School District. They tried to destroy it and only stopped when one of the school board members was arrested for assault. She maced a high school girl waiting for a bus. She thought the kid was a hooker soliciting sex. Turns out, it was a black girl (adopted into a white family). Seems look there was an element of racism among the Christians as well.

Maybe sexual repression is just hard wired. But there has to be something in the culture to give us leave to use it on others.

So is RELIGION the ultimate evil that invites the worse of human behavior to spew out?


What is the great evil that invites the most harm out from and on the most people?

A former member
Post #: 9
"Our species is obsessed with sex and women being a big part of that, it will always be there."

~ Unless if we're talking about lesbians, men are also a big part of sex, too! And on the other hand, gay men don't consider women a big or small part of sex! biggrin

By the way, thank you, Richard, for starting this great discussion. I really love that we have this discussion board as a way for the group to continue its discussions.

The terms "society" and "culture" are often used interchangeably, but I guess one way some theorists make the distinction between the two is that society is the group of people, and culture is what that group of people believe, practice and are taught. Think of the way that a family is made up of individuals--yes, they are individuals, but they are still a family, too. Same thing goes for individuals and society.

I don't think that sexual repression of women is hardwired into human beings. But I do tend to agree with the idea that it is "nice to find someone we can look down on for some reason." Maybe one way we can think about this is that "looking down on others" can be a tactic for growing in-group cohesion, and gathering and maintaining power. And certainly sexual and other repression of women has allowed men in many traditional societies to gather and maintain power. Think of the witch hunts and how midwives were targeted; something which male doctors perhaps had an incentive to go along with.

There's at least one society I know of that allowed women to take multiple "husbands" (though that's our word for it, not theirs)--the Mosuo people in China. Men visit the women (who have their own households). There is no restriction on how many partners a woman can have in her lifetime (though it is a form of "serial monogamy.") Society and family structure are set up around these "walking marriages." There is no concept of "father" in this society, but uncles (the mother's brothers) participate in child-rearing. Of course, things are changing now that the outside world has come into play in this society, but this is how things were traditionally practiced.


Bringing this back round to animal sex, I wanted to ask, what if human beings did it like bonobos? Not with bonobos, mind you; just followed their sexual practices:

"Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society observed in captivity, being used as what some scientists perceive as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution, and post-conflict reconciliation.

So my big question is:

Would human society be better off if we did it like bonobos?

Bernie D.
Hillsboro, OR
Post #: 363
"Would human society be better off if we did it like bonobos?"

Humans are much too smart to act like Bonobos. Bonobos can trade food for sex; humans charge money for it. ;-)

When it comes to sex, I was thinking this the other day. Some people love to refer to the animals. The animals do this or do that. But animals also do some very unhealthy and stupid things, like go to the bathroom in their drinking water. I heard that when humans learned not to do that, life longevity really took off, according to some theories. Use that as an analogy with sex. Animals do it anywhere, so could we. But is it smart? Maybe like controlling where we go to the bathroom, we should add an intellectual layer onto sexuality too. This would be called 'morals.' And as we all know, there are many different foundations for choosing morals, as Richard had on his poster boards last Sunday.

Richard M.
Group Organizer
Portland, OR
Post #: 55
Wonderful video, I guess. I have seen human children do worse, and human adults, don't get me started on them.

Ghandi (and many people in that culture) drank his own urine daily.

I honestly can't see a human improvement over animals, except in technology. That's why I started this Meetup site. I'm looking for some manner in which homo sapiens are morally superior to chimpanzeeS.

Sure, they rape and murder each other, but we do it with B-52's. Then we invent gods and patriotism to justify it.

They just do it because it is their nature.

We do it because it is in our nature,

But we know that it is wrong and decide to do it anyway.

Then we make up some nonsense justification and call it a virtue.

Isn't there a passage about 'to whom much is given much is expected?"

Seems to me my chihuahua is more moral than most people I know. But then, I have a very moral Chihuahua.

Really, sincerely, I wonder about that.

A former member
Post #: 201

Certainly there is a lot bad behavior to bemoan. I wouldn't necessarily suggest that we can balance that against any particularly distilled moral reason be we do occasionally do remarkable things that go some distance to redeem us a species.

Human cruelty is likely unique in that animals, while often vicious, probably don't hold grudges or take reflective pleasure in the suffering of others. At the same time it is this very capacity for reflection that allows us to make noble gestures, sacrifices and examples that also don't seem to have direct parallels in the animal kingdom.

Many animal mothers will throw themselves in harms way to facilitate the escape of their young but I think it takes the idealism of a person to do such things on pure principle.

The life magazine photos documenting the american civil rights movement are one thing that crystallizes this for me (of course there are many more examples) The idea of someone standing in the breach come-what-may in the name an ideal. Moments we can be collectively proud of.
Richard M.
Group Organizer
Portland, OR
Post #: 56
Hi Ryan,

I just got back from Zombie dancing in Pioneer Square as a fundraiser for a charity. Now that I'm clean, I would like to bemoan human morals some more. I didn't really do it for the charity, I did it because it was fun.

You wrote "someone standing in the breach come-what-may in the name an ideal. Moments we can be collectively proud of." Of course, true, but we notice them because they are so rare.

It's only a tiny overstatement to say that ALL RELIGIONS SUPPORT ALL WARS, ALL THE TIME.

Sure, you can find an exception, but it just that. Maybe .0001 % of religious people can be found "standing in the breach come-what-may" to oppose war. I've lived through several wars, invasions, etc., in each one I was a member of some religious organization, I never heard a peep from anyone against any of it. The other 99.9999% pay their taxes, keep their mouths shut, praise their sons for signing up, call them hero's when they're killed, pray for peace and vote for war.

The only institution that has a worse moral record is the academics. If the god people look the other way in the face of evil, the professors say "You need a better zyklon gas? We can make it for you."

Really, on "balance", the 99.99999% of people who will support anything comfortable no matter how horrid, versus the .00000001 who do stand against the stuff...

Am I being irrational here?

A former member
Post #: 203

Well, I'm not going to debate arithmetic. Heroes are rare otherwise we'd have some other word for them.

As far as religion goes, you won't hear me defending that either. Dogma is both silly and scary but, ultimately, megalomania is worse. I tend to suspect that every human institution is basically the same once it reaches a certain size. I root for the underdog.

I figure that I should find SOMETHING to fix my eyes on and hope for. Otherwise I might as well just check out now. Whether the object of my idealistic affections is a rational goal or not... probably not. But, if I pontificate on those characters who we might consider heroes perhaps their goals were equally ridiculous.

Perhaps I give people a bit more credit than you. 'Standing in the breach' is something we can't always perceive. For every famous liberator we know about how many fought and died anonymously? I suspect there were quite a few. Add to that the factors of time, place and opportunity. The noblest of all souls might be born into a destitute situation that renders their sacrifice all but meaningless.

I cannot ever know anothers mind. I can only observe behavior.

Lastly, the world is chaotic. All of our goals both humanistic and despotic are fairly piddly next to the spectacle of nature. Ultimately our fate is only very marginally a result of our deliberate choices. Maybe we can take some comfort in the fact that much of human misery is not, as it turns out, a symptom of our own failures.

If all of that fails to cheer you up I have no choice but to resort to prop comedy.

Bernie D.
Hillsboro, OR
Post #: 365
"It's only a tiny overstatement to say that ALL RELIGIONS SUPPORT ALL WARS, ALL THE TIME."

I think it may be more clear to think that all wars are really over land. People aren't fighting primarily for religious reasons today. In other words, if everyone was an atheist, would we still have these wars? Yes, because it is over tribal ownership of land. If the wars would be fought even without religion, then it shows that religion isn't really the main underlying reason for war. But the major tribes at war today do have various different religious outlooks.

But look at WWII. Was Germany hell bent on war because of religion? I don't think so. It was the age of imperialism. Next, and now, we are in the age of nations, and we are trying to learn how to get along as many sovereign nations. Rather than running Iraq, Iran, India, etc. as imperialist colonies, they are learning to be able to stand on their own and act responsibly.
Richard M.
Group Organizer
Portland, OR
Post #: 57
Hey Ryan,

Thanks for trying to cheer me up. Concerning anonymous martyrs, a woman in my church did that last year. She and several other women chained themselves (several wheelchairs, they were elderly) to a tree to protest the military recruiting for Bush's War. The Bush Administration tried her for "terrorism." The jury took about 15 minutes to acquit her. About six months later, she was killed in an "accident" back East.

Our military trains "death squads" throughout Latin America in the School Of The Americas. You think we don't have death squads going around in the U.S.? I saw a Fox tape of Dick Cheney bragging about it after 911.

Hi Bernie, good to hear from you too.

My point isn't that religion causes wars, I don't think it does. I really don't think it ever has. Not real wars at least, riots for sure, but not real wars.

Religion is used by people who benefit from war to justify them and recruit supporters.

What is the difference between a bar room brawl and a war? Governments break up bar room fights, because they do not benefit the government. Bar fights are started to benefit the fighters (at least in their minds).

When a government thinks it can benefit itself from violence, it starts an international bar room brawl and calls it good.

Whatever people believe in, that gives them permission to set aside their entire moral code, governments use. They use patriotism, religion, racial hatred, ethnic hostilities, motherhood, apple pie, anything and everything.

The sin (it seems to me) is to believe in any of them. But that's pretty hard, people have to believe in something. They always go to whatever makes them feel good.

Speaking of the 20th Century's world wars, I love 'em. WWI was perfect. Motivated by more profits for a very few people who were in need of absolutely nothing. History, God and country used all around to kill millions and impoverish the rest. Really, a perfect war. Round 2 was a redo of round 1.

I have several books on religion inside the Third Reich. Several theologians fled Germany, what's interesting is how the rest rationalized their support of Hitler. Great stuff. I wouldn't have done any better. The White Rose Society was an exception. That was an interesting crew. They actually took the teachings of JC literally. They lived about a week.

That gives me a good idea for a potential topic.


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