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Henderson, NV
Post #: 66
WOW!! Seems there's a new Sheriff in town!
A former member
Post #: 14
It might serve a better purpose to relegate accident analysis to another thread- it is important, I think that we keep the two issues here separate.

This thread is to bring to Rose's and others attention that a certain level of experience is needed before one is qualified to instruct others. Another thread about the accident in question would be a good idea. It would be even better if Rose would start the thread and give us an in depth look at what occurred- starting with her basic outline of the accident on Mountain Project.
user 3370027
Henderson, NV
Post #: 118
Thank you John W.

I will do even better than that.... I will bring the injured person to tomorrow's meetup (5/4/11) so you can all learn from our mistakes.

A former member
Post #: 16
Rose- that would be great, but if you can also answer the questions I posted in the new analysis thread, that'd be great as well. It'd be good to have your perspective on this as well.
Las Vegas, NV
Post #: 19
I love you to death, but you are wrong in your assessment of this group. It is a total miss representation to characterize these Meet Ups as bunch of "experienced climbers" getting together to go climbing. Most if not all of these outings are attended predominately by newbies looking to meet experienced climbers so they can learn. If you cannot see that or come to terms with that, then maybe you are either blind, or completely disillusioned. Maybe YOUR Meet Ups are attended by "EXPERIENCED" climbers at the climbing gym. Which, I find hard to believe. But, Dan, is absolutely right , and it was absolutely correct for him to speak out.
Your input on this issue was not only irrelevant to the point. It served only to distract members to some other issue like liability or the legality of what is said in this forum. That of which served no purpose to the user. Who cares about "CYA" when the real issue is trying to save people from banging their heads on rocks and bleeding!
The real issue is: safety
Thanks Dan!
Karen A. W.
user 9616050
Las Vegas, NV
Post #: 6
I am a newbie. I don't even put my harness on at most meetups. Partly because I am new and large and don't feel safe. Maybe part of the problem is that there are a lot of new people who are not that aware of who is skilled enough to rely on. I will say that I have been concerned as some of the belayers don't seem to be as focused on the climber as they are yacking to others. also imo beta should not be yelled up to someone when clearly the climber and the belayer are working the climb together. Just sayin.
user 3370027
Henderson, NV
Post #: 119
Well, I certainly learned one lesson from all this... NEVER TELL ANYONE THE TRUTH about your climbing mistakes.
Las Vegas, NV
Post #: 21
For the Rock Climber, Canyoneer, and Adventurer in all of us …

From my own recent experiences which have included several “close calls” or “epics” I have learned some valuable lessons. Where Mother Nature and/or any high risk sport or adventure is concerned, we ALL need to keep certain things in mind.

Take these mindsets/emotions with you:
Safety for yourself and the group you are with
Humility (be humble)
Respect (of each other and the environment)
Self-Confidence, but not OVER confident
Sense of pride for your accomplishments; you should be proud
Knowledge (as much as you can get)
Empowerment (empower yourself to make decisions and think for yourself)
Compassion (be compassionate with others)
Pushing but also understanding your own limits (after all, we all do these high risk sports because we love the adventure)
Love and passion of the sport – That’s why we do it!
Have fun smile

Check these mindsets/emotions at the door and leave them behind:

Ego (there is no room for egos when it comes to the safety of others)
Pride (yes, I know it was on the other list, sometimes you have to swallow your pride)
Don’t make Excuses (we all make mistakes and we need to evaluate and learn from them)
Unnecessary Risks (especially risks involving others)
Be aware of your surroundings

Also remember and arm yourself with these important things:

Exercise good judgment.
Remember that experience really only comes with time, no matter how much you think you know, we are all still learning.
Be Reflective (on past incidents, mistakes, and accomplishments)
Employ assessment and problem solving skills.
Seek professional training and practice, practice, practice.
Proper gear, proper application of gear, and knowledge of how to use it properly.
Responsibility for ourselves and others that we CHOOSE to participate with, as individuals and fellow “adventurer”.

In conclusion, I care very much about my friends who participate not only in climbing and canyoneering, but in other high risk adventures and I don’t want to see any them hurt because they were involved in an accident or incident that they were a victim of, are responsible for, or were just involved in by participation in the group. I have witnessed things myself in the past and have been reluctant to speak up because of one of these emotions or mindsets getting in the way. The fact of the matter is, if you feel someone is at risk for involvement in an accident, injury or death, it’s our duty as a member of the community and a friend to speak up and be constructive. No offense intended, it’s just a matter of doing the right thing and trying to prevent an accident that can result in regret and remorse.

A former member
Post #: 17
Well, I certainly learned one lesson from all this... NEVER TELL ANYONE THE TRUTH about your climbing mistakes.

If that is what you learned, Rose, then God help you.
Lynda G.
user 7809300
Las Vegas, NV
Post #: 33
I have read the post in Mountain project and all the postings here. I still consider myself a new climber. I started climbing 2 years ago at the LVMC. The very first thing I was taught was that climbing is serious business. I was all excited about this new sport and my enthusiasm got in the way of thinking about safety. It wasn't long before I made a couple of serious mistakes. It was those mistakes which changed my thinking and behavior about climbing. This is not Belly Dancing... You can die .
What disturbs me the most about this incident, is the lack of responsibility taken for what has happened. It is a cavalier attitude and it scares the crap out of me. Rose, sit down and think about what you could have done differently. Could this accident have been avoided? What will you do differently in the future?
I thank God my friends were strong enough with me to tell me the things I was doing wrong. Believe me, they were not nice about it either. Dan, Ken, John, Luanne, Tim ect ect have serious concerns.... They have voiced them because they know what the consequences are to mistakes in rock climbing..... these are the people I have chosen to learn from... I myself will not climb with many people because I either feel I am not adequate to be responsible for them, or I feel they are not serious enough to partner with.
My advice to those who are still learning is to surround yourself with people who are experienced and serious rock climbers. If need be... Hire a professional to teach you proper technique, but please only climb with those people who put safety first and fun second.
I am fortunate to be learning from the best..... Thanks Dan for your fantastic teaching ability and for always calling me out when I'm not thinking right.... To Kristen.... Please reference the discussion "Hamlet Wall" and take note of Rose's remarks regarding teaching....
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